Hebrew Catholics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting discussion here from sort of the opposite end of the discussion, on whether and to what extent a Jewish convert to Christianity remains bound by the Law.

https://www.quora.com/Does-Christianity-hold-that-converts-from-Judaism-still-have-to-keep-the-Law

All that link does is prove that anybody can type shit into the internet. Very, very, very, very minority views (within Christianity) are being put forward there.

Gosh, that’s helpful criticism. Who needs a rebuttal link? Well just rely on what you “type into the internet.”

Anyway, “very minority” or not, the conclusions in the article line up with the gist of what someone in a position to know told me once upon a time. And of course the views discussed are “within Christianity.” The article and post made that clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

Yes you absolutely can. Who are you to determine that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who converts out to another religion is an apostate. They are no longer counted in a minyan or eligible for an Aliyah or full participation in Jewish rituals. In short, OP worshipping at synagogue as a Jew (which was her question) would not be welcome.

This. There are social consequences for conversion, too. A Jew who converts to any form of Christianity has left the Jewish community in every sense.

OP can find people with Jewish ancestry who have grown up without knowledge of or interest in traditional Judaism who don't feel this way, but those people's opinions will not be the normative ones.

This idiocy is exactly why the world is the way it. People can worship what they like, where they like and in any way or ways they like.

I’m Jewish and Catholic. By birth not conversion. So what’s your point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

^This. You retain your ethnicity, obviously (which is different from nationality). Jewish culture is very intertwined with the Jewish religion though, and herein lies the problem for some converts. An acquaintance who is ethnically Jewish said that his community made it clear that, basically, he could believe anything he wanted and remain culturally Jewish EXCEPT for claiming that Jesus is the Messiah. Then you're out. Pray to mother earth, talk to flowers, practice astrology, whatever, just absolutely no Jesus is eternal God claims.

The last sentence is spot on. What is it about accepting Christian beliefs? The Jewish context of the New Testament is apparent to anyone who reads it, so, if anything, you would think ethnic/cultural Jews who profess Christian beliefs would be accepted by Jews perhaps in a similar way to Jews who assert the Chabad Rebbe is the Messiah are not shunned.

St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein) was a Jewish nun who was arrested specifically because she was Jewish and killed by the Nazis, along with other Jewish Catholics. While she may not have taken a traditional contemporary Jewish path, she was no less Jewish.

Are there ethnic, cultural Jews who are baptized Catholics who attend mass, but also periodically attend Reform congregations (or other Jewish denominations), perhaps for a Purim celebration or Shabbat?

What on Earth are you on about???

The Christian bible repeatedly and deliberately mistranslates the Hebrew in the Tanakh for the purposes of getting people to join Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Christian bible..

And there are definitely plenty of Jews who think the Lubavitchers are on the edge of or fully on idolatry with their Rebbe beliefs. No other Jewish denomination shares that belief.

You cannot expect "mainstream" Jews to accept a by birth Jew (or even convert) who has religiously walked away from the Jewish faith to be bumping elbows at Shabbat services.

And why would the OP even want to continue to be involved with *religious* Jewish life given they have rejected it??

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

"The Christian bible repeatedly and deliberately mistranslates the Hebrew in the Tanakh for the purposes of getting people to join Christianity. Jews do not believe in the Christian bible."

Would it be fair to assume that you are Modern Orthodox? Would it be fair to assume that you have never read the New Testament?
Please provide examples. Keep in mind that the Septuagint Tanakh (translated by Jewish scholars in the 200 BCs) and the basis of the New Testament citations predates the Masoretic Tanakh (of which you may be referring) by about 1,000 years.

DP Jewish (I've been both Reform and Conservative). I have read the New Testament.

The most blatant example of a Christian mistranslation (or perhaps just a misunderstanding) is the whole "virgin" thing. The Hebrew means more like "young girl," not an allusion to a virgin birth.

There are more translations that Christians use to read Jesus into the Old Testament, like translating a Hebrew word with connotations of "digging" to mean "piercing" or reading prophets who were talking metaphorically about themselves in the third person to be talking about the future Jesus.

Plus, there's a whole way that Jews understand the Tanakh through our history, through midrash (Oral Torah), through our other texts (like Mishnah and Talmud), and through centuries of teshuvot (responsa or rulings on various issues). Reading it without those contextual pieces makes the reading of it incomplete from a Jewish perspective.

All of this is to say that it doesn't make sense to be Catholic and to engage religiously with Judaism. We technically read the same texts, but don't fundamentally don't read them the same way. If OP wanted to find a way to continue celebrating Purim or Passover by throwing a Purim party or hosting a Catholic seder (problematic, but that's a different conversation) as cultural things, then sure. But she's talking about going to synagogue. There is nothing cultural or ethnic about synagogue. That's where religious Judaism happens, and she rejected being religiously Jewish by becoming Catholic.

To echo PP, I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for y'all to grasp.

It’s difficult because there is a repeated theme of DCUM poster/s who are unaccountably offended by the notion that Jews have criteria for what a Jew is. Despite literally every other religion having such criteria. I don’t want to say it is anti-semitism but I believe it is something peculiar to some Christians on here who seem to want to believe that Judaism is just Jr Christianity.

This. Also, because Judaism predates the ideas of religion, ethnicity, and race even though it participates in all of these modern categories, it is a poor fit for this argument separating religion and ethnicity for a community that doesn't do that.

Someone who converts leaves the tribe in every sense. Conversion doesn't change DNA, but it does mean leaving the community.

And tribalism is exactly the problem with all you religious zealots of any faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who converts out to another religion is an apostate. They are no longer counted in a minyan or eligible for an Aliyah or full participation in Jewish rituals. In short, OP worshipping at synagogue as a Jew (which was her question) would not be welcome.

This. There are social consequences for conversion, too. A Jew who converts to any form of Christianity has left the Jewish community in every sense.

OP can find people with Jewish ancestry who have grown up without knowledge of or interest in traditional Judaism who don't feel this way, but those people's opinions will not be the normative ones.

This idiocy is exactly why the world is the way it. People can worship what they like, where they like and in any way or ways they like.

I’m Jewish and Catholic. By birth not conversion. So what’s your point?

No they can't. There are rules in any religion. A Jew can't go take communion in a church. A non-Jew can't have an aliyah. Is anyone going to physically stop OP from entering a synagogue? No, probably not. But if it's known that she converted to Catholicism, she shouldn't expect to still be treated (at least religiously/ritually) like a Jew in that setting. Nobody has said OP shouldn't have converted to Catholicism. She can "worship what she likes" and if Catholicism is what she likes, that's fine. But it's bonkers to suggest that religions can't set boundaries about what is theologically acceptable and who gets to participate in certain rituals. Every religion does that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

Yes you absolutely can. Who are you to determine that?

DP. It’s the religious community that determines the rules, and by the rules of the Catholic Church you could not both be Jewish and Catholic. Vice versa for most Jewish congregations. What you consider yourself ethnically is different question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who converts out to another religion is an apostate. They are no longer counted in a minyan or eligible for an Aliyah or full participation in Jewish rituals. In short, OP worshipping at synagogue as a Jew (which was her question) would not be welcome.

This. There are social consequences for conversion, too. A Jew who converts to any form of Christianity has left the Jewish community in every sense.

OP can find people with Jewish ancestry who have grown up without knowledge of or interest in traditional Judaism who don't feel this way, but those people's opinions will not be the normative ones.

This idiocy is exactly why the world is the way it. People can worship what they like, where they like and in any way or ways they like.

I’m Jewish and Catholic. By birth not conversion. So what’s your point?

No they can't. There are rules in any religion. A Jew can't go take communion in a church. A non-Jew can't have an aliyah. Is anyone going to physically stop OP from entering a synagogue? No, probably not. But if it's known that she converted to Catholicism, she shouldn't expect to still be treated (at least religiously/ritually) like a Jew in that setting. Nobody has said OP shouldn't have converted to Catholicism. She can "worship what she likes" and if Catholicism is what she likes, that's fine. But it's bonkers to suggest that religions can't set boundaries about what is theologically acceptable and who gets to participate in certain rituals. Every religion does that.

Exactly. I (the mom) am not Jewish but raising my son Jewish (his dad is Jewish). I realize that some Jewish congregations don’t accept that he is Jewish so we chose one that does accept him. If I were dead-set on him being considered Jewish by all, or joining a Conservative congregation, I would follow their rules and convert. I have zero problems with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who converts out to another religion is an apostate. They are no longer counted in a minyan or eligible for an Aliyah or full participation in Jewish rituals. In short, OP worshipping at synagogue as a Jew (which was her question) would not be welcome.

This. There are social consequences for conversion, too. A Jew who converts to any form of Christianity has left the Jewish community in every sense.

OP can find people with Jewish ancestry who have grown up without knowledge of or interest in traditional Judaism who don't feel this way, but those people's opinions will not be the normative ones.

This idiocy is exactly why the world is the way it. People can worship what they like, where they like and in any way or ways they like.

I’m Jewish and Catholic. By birth not conversion. So what’s your point?

No they can't. There are rules in any religion. A Jew can't go take communion in a church. A non-Jew can't have an aliyah. Is anyone going to physically stop OP from entering a synagogue? No, probably not. But if it's known that she converted to Catholicism, she shouldn't expect to still be treated (at least religiously/ritually) like a Jew in that setting. Nobody has said OP shouldn't have converted to Catholicism. She can "worship what she likes" and if Catholicism is what she likes, that's fine. But it's bonkers to suggest that religions can't set boundaries about what is theologically acceptable and who gets to participate in certain rituals. Every religion does that.

Exactly. I (the mom) am not Jewish but raising my son Jewish (his dad is Jewish). I realize that some Jewish congregations don’t accept that he is Jewish so we chose one that does accept him. If I were dead-set on him being considered Jewish by all, or joining a Conservative congregation, I would follow their rules and convert. I have zero problems with this.

The whole point of Reform Judaism's patrilineal descent ruling is supposed to be that a child could be considered Jewish with a Jewish dad and non-Jewish mom as long as the child is raised exclusively Jewish. I (a Conservative Jew) am fully supportive of this definition of a Jew, even though my movement isn't there yet. Patrilineal Jews are hardly the only ones whose status isn't universally accepted across movements. Converts from the Reform/Conservative/Reconstructionist movements aren't accepted as halachically Jewish in Orthodox communities. I think your attitude of being comfortable within the rules of your chosen Jewish community (and not worrying what the other movements think until it might be relevant to you) is the right way to go. Thank you for being part of Jewish life and our Jewish community!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

Jesus did it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

Yes you absolutely can. Who are you to determine that?

Jewish. (I'm not PP but this is literally against Jewish practice.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A Jew who converts out to another religion is an apostate. They are no longer counted in a minyan or eligible for an Aliyah or full participation in Jewish rituals. In short, OP worshipping at synagogue as a Jew (which was her question) would not be welcome.

This. There are social consequences for conversion, too. A Jew who converts to any form of Christianity has left the Jewish community in every sense.

OP can find people with Jewish ancestry who have grown up without knowledge of or interest in traditional Judaism who don't feel this way, but those people's opinions will not be the normative ones.

This idiocy is exactly why the world is the way it. People can worship what they like, where they like and in any way or ways they like.

I’m Jewish and Catholic. By birth not conversion. So what’s your point?

No they can't. There are rules in any religion. A Jew can't go take communion in a church. A non-Jew can't have an aliyah. Is anyone going to physically stop OP from entering a synagogue? No, probably not. But if it's known that she converted to Catholicism, she shouldn't expect to still be treated (at least religiously/ritually) like a Jew in that setting. Nobody has said OP shouldn't have converted to Catholicism. She can "worship what she likes" and if Catholicism is what she likes, that's fine. But it's bonkers to suggest that religions can't set boundaries about what is theologically acceptable and who gets to participate in certain rituals. Every religion does that.

Exactly. I (the mom) am not Jewish but raising my son Jewish (his dad is Jewish). I realize that some Jewish congregations don’t accept that he is Jewish so we chose one that does accept him. If I were dead-set on him being considered Jewish by all, or joining a Conservative congregation, I would follow their rules and convert. I have zero problems with this.

The whole point of Reform Judaism's patrilineal descent ruling is supposed to be that a child could be considered Jewish with a Jewish dad and non-Jewish mom as long as the child is raised exclusively Jewish. I (a Conservative Jew) am fully supportive of this definition of a Jew, even though my movement isn't there yet. Patrilineal Jews are hardly the only ones whose status isn't universally accepted across movements. Converts from the Reform/Conservative/Reconstructionist movements aren't accepted as halachically Jewish in Orthodox communities. I think your attitude of being comfortable within the rules of your chosen Jewish community (and not worrying what the other movements think until it might be relevant to you) is the right way to go. Thank you for being part of Jewish life and our Jewish community!

Thank you for being so kind! I greatly appreciate my role as a “fellow traveler.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

Yes you absolutely can. Who are you to determine that?

DP. It’s the religious community that determines the rules, and by the rules of the Catholic Church you could not both be Jewish and Catholic. Vice versa for most Jewish congregations. What you consider yourself ethnically is different question.

Actually, as discussed in an earlier post, it is possible at least from a Catholic standpoint for a Jewish person to become Catholic but remain bound by certain aspects of the Jewish Law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For Jews who have joined the Catholic Church, but retain their Jewish cultural/ethnic/religious identity, how have you done so? Do you go to mass and synagogue? Do you find yourself welcome in both communities?

You can’t be both Catholic and Jewish.

Yes you absolutely can. Who are you to determine that?

DP. It’s the religious community that determines the rules, and by the rules of the Catholic Church you could not both be Jewish and Catholic. Vice versa for most Jewish congregations. What you consider yourself ethnically is different question.

Actually, as discussed in an earlier post, it is possible at least from a Catholic standpoint for a Jewish person to become Catholic but remain bound by certain aspects of the Jewish Law.

But since under Jewish law, it is not possible to become Catholic but still remain Jewish, no Jews will really care what Catholic teaching says about which Jewish laws Jews who have converted to Catholicism are still required (by Catholicism) to follow.

I continue to believe there are no actual people who were born Jewish but converted to Catholicism but still (a) want to attend synagogue regularly or (b) want to make any attempt at following halacha on any matter. But I guess if such people do exist, it's between them and the pope whether they do or don't follow the Jewish laws that the Church thinks they're still supposed to obey.

[Anonymous]

Historical conversions were forced. Naturally Jewish law considered them Jewish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Historical conversions were forced. Naturally Jewish law considered them Jewish.

But voluntary convert = apostate. Also, many of the most vicious antisemitic tracts in history were written by these apostates. They used their knowledge of the communities they were born into to attack their own family and prove how Christian their hearts were. In the 1600s, Catholic censors of Hebrew books were mainly "New Christians".

Don't appeal to history to justify Jewish embrace of apostates. OP cannot be compared to one of the anusim.