When does the work day end?

[Anonymous]

OP et al, who expect the AP to eat dinner with you, plus help prep, cook, and clean up are abusing your AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there needs to be understanding that if the AP has been with the kids for a long time she may need some down time. Expecting her to immediately jump from working AP role to helping out as a family member (help make dinner and help clean up) isn't really fair to her.

Agree with this. That's part of the problem with this blurry lined setup of employee/family member. No one should HAVE to eat dinner with their boss, nor should they have to work while not being paid. Yes watching your kids and cleaning your dishes is work for her and that doesn't change at 5 o'clock. I also understand the feeling that you shouldn't have to ask a family member for help or pay them for said help when preparing dinner/cleaning up. An arrangement that is agreeable to all parties can be reached of course but try to see it from your APs perspective. You're asking her to eat dinner with her boss and essentially to take her work home with her at the end of the day. You may say you have to take your work home but I'm sure you don't like it, and I'm sure your salary reflects the expectation.

This is an interesting perspective we are getting here - making dinner with the family sound like an awful ordeal and a chore, when I'm sure many families and au pairs enjoy this as part of the cultural exchange of the program: getting to know each other, talk, share food, etc. We are a family that does not have dinner with our au pair very frequently because of our schedules - I get home from work very late, and the kids have to go to sleep soon after I get home. So the kids get fed earlier in the evening (either by the AP or DH, whoever is on "duty" that day at that time), and then the adults eat when they can later in the evening. Our APs have tended to eat soon after they are off duty, or sometimes with the kids if they are responsible for the kids' dinner that day, and then go out or enjoy a quiet evening in their room. We invite them to eat with us (me and DH) later in the evening, but they usually don't take us up on that. (DH and I will usually just collapse in front of the TV for dinner anyway - so it's not really quality "family" time. Though we have had au pairs who like to join us for particular shows each week, and we make it into "family tv night" with dinner, some wine, conversation, etc.) But - I have always felt a little bad that we DON'T have family dinner regularly for the APs to join in. We always make this very clear up front when matching because we assume APs will be disappointed that we don't provide the family dinner experience.

So - hearing so many of you bitter folk make dinner with the family sound like some awful ordeal is pretty interesting. Are you all trolls, APs, or are you host families? I certainly understand the reasons why an AP would not want to have family dinner EVERY night of the week (exhausted, just want to veg out, need a break from being around the kids, etc.), but if the relationship between the AP and the family is good, this seems like it would be a nice part of family life. And I would think that the AP is probably used to helping do a little prep for dinner, or helping clean up afterwards, if she had family dinners back home. Unless the family actually has the AP act as chef and clean-up maid - and I'm sure there are some bad host families out there that require this - family dinner sounds really nice to me.

Family dinner sounds nice yes. How does dinner with your boss sound after a long day at work? How does dinner with your boss and your "work" sound? How does dinner with your boss doing work at your place of business and having to "help" cleanup after, when what everyone wants to do after work is throw their shoes off and sit in peace and quiet for a moment before worrying about dinner, kids, or more work. Its not about bitterness, its just trying to get some of these host families wearing rose colored glasses that the situation isn't as lovely as you think it is. Your AP may enjoy the occasional dinner with your family, heck she may enjoy eating with you every night, but not every AP would and I don't think that makes them a bad employee. I was the oldest girl in my family. That meant my mom or I cooked dinner, and after everyone went about their merry way while I scrubbed dishes, out away the food, and cleared the table. But if you ask my family they all "pitched in" I'm sorry, I think it'd be really easy to slowly transfer after dinner responsibilities to your employee and it just doesn't sound fun for the AP.

So then you must be an AP who does not buy into the "cultural exchange" aspect of the program, or you have ended up with a host family who doesn't, and who treats you like the help even in your off hours - which is not how it is supposed to be. Notice I sympathized with your perspective - that most APs probably wouldn't want EVERY meal with the family, and would need/want a break. But just because you and your mom were domestic servants for your dad and brothers, does not mean that every American family would treat you that way. That is not in the spirit of the AP program. You used the term employee, and APs are employees when they are on-duty, but are not meant to be treated as employees when off-duty (though I know not all families follow that, but they should). I guess you'd like to be an AP in our house, since we rarely have dinner with our APs; but I would be sad to know that was your attitude generally, when I usually feel bad that we CAN'T provide that nice family dinner environment. We enjoy the cultural exchange aspect of the program - we like to have someone in our home who is interested in being something more to our family than just an employee, and we try to treat our au pairs that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP et al, who expect the AP to eat dinner with you, plus help prep, cook, and clean up are abusing your AP.

TOTALLY agree! Such abuse to include your AP in family dinner time. Will re-think this whole "part of the family" thing because of your post, definitely! Will start cooking separate gourmet dinners for my AP and bringing them to her room on a silver platter, setting a little table for her in her room, putting her napkin on her lap, then coming back to gather the dishes and clean them for her. Will then draw back her sheets, fill up her tub with bubble bath, and give her a pedicure. PHEW! Glad I have learned from you how not to abuse my AP before it's too late.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there needs to be understanding that if the AP has been with the kids for a long time she may need some down time. Expecting her to immediately jump from working AP role to helping out as a family member (help make dinner and help clean up) isn't really fair to her.

Agree with this. That's part of the problem with this blurry lined setup of employee/family member. No one should HAVE to eat dinner with their boss, nor should they have to work while not being paid. Yes watching your kids and cleaning your dishes is work for her and that doesn't change at 5 o'clock. I also understand the feeling that you shouldn't have to ask a family member for help or pay them for said help when preparing dinner/cleaning up. An arrangement that is agreeable to all parties can be reached of course but try to see it from your APs perspective. You're asking her to eat dinner with her boss and essentially to take her work home with her at the end of the day. You may say you have to take your work home but I'm sure you don't like it, and I'm sure your salary reflects the expectation.

This is an interesting perspective we are getting here - making dinner with the family sound like an awful ordeal and a chore, when I'm sure many families and au pairs enjoy this as part of the cultural exchange of the program: getting to know each other, talk, share food, etc. We are a family that does not have dinner with our au pair very frequently because of our schedules - I get home from work very late, and the kids have to go to sleep soon after I get home. So the kids get fed earlier in the evening (either by the AP or DH, whoever is on "duty" that day at that time), and then the adults eat when they can later in the evening. Our APs have tended to eat soon after they are off duty, or sometimes with the kids if they are responsible for the kids' dinner that day, and then go out or enjoy a quiet evening in their room. We invite them to eat with us (me and DH) later in the evening, but they usually don't take us up on that. (DH and I will usually just collapse in front of the TV for dinner anyway - so it's not really quality "family" time. Though we have had au pairs who like to join us for particular shows each week, and we make it into "family tv night" with dinner, some wine, conversation, etc.) But - I have always felt a little bad that we DON'T have family dinner regularly for the APs to join in. We always make this very clear up front when matching because we assume APs will be disappointed that we don't provide the family dinner experience.

So - hearing so many of you bitter folk make dinner with the family sound like some awful ordeal is pretty interesting. Are you all trolls, APs, or are you host families? I certainly understand the reasons why an AP would not want to have family dinner EVERY night of the week (exhausted, just want to veg out, need a break from being around the kids, etc.), but if the relationship between the AP and the family is good, this seems like it would be a nice part of family life. And I would think that the AP is probably used to helping do a little prep for dinner, or helping clean up afterwards, if she had family dinners back home. Unless the family actually has the AP act as chef and clean-up maid - and I'm sure there are some bad host families out there that require this - family dinner sounds really nice to me.

Family dinner sounds nice yes. How does dinner with your boss sound after a long day at work? How does dinner with your boss and your "work" sound? How does dinner with your boss doing work at your place of business and having to "help" cleanup after, when what everyone wants to do after work is throw their shoes off and sit in peace and quiet for a moment before worrying about dinner, kids, or more work. Its not about bitterness, its just trying to get some of these host families wearing rose colored glasses that the situation isn't as lovely as you think it is. Your AP may enjoy the occasional dinner with your family, heck she may enjoy eating with you every night, but not every AP would and I don't think that makes them a bad employee. I was the oldest girl in my family. That meant my mom or I cooked dinner, and after everyone went about their merry way while I scrubbed dishes, out away the food, and cleared the table. But if you ask my family they all "pitched in" I'm sorry, I think it'd be really easy to slowly transfer after dinner responsibilities to your employee and it just doesn't sound fun for the AP.

So then you must be an AP who does not buy into the "cultural exchange" aspect of the program, or you have ended up with a host family who doesn't, and who treats you like the help even in your off hours - which is not how it is supposed to be. Notice I sympathized with your perspective - that most APs probably wouldn't want EVERY meal with the family, and would need/want a break. But just because you and your mom were domestic servants for your dad and brothers, does not mean that every American family would treat you that way. That is not in the spirit of the AP program. You used the term employee, and APs are employees when they are on-duty, but are not meant to be treated as employees when off-duty (though I know not all families follow that, but they should). I guess you'd like to be an AP in our house, since we rarely have dinner with our APs; but I would be sad to know that was your attitude generally, when I usually feel bad that we CAN'T provide that nice family dinner environment. We enjoy the cultural exchange aspect of the program - we like to have someone in our home who is interested in being something more to our family than just an employee, and we try to treat our au pairs that way.

Ah - just saw from your exchange with the other host mom that you indeed are NOT an AP and never have been. So your perspective is not that of an AP who has experienced or is even interested in the AP program and its goals, spirit, etc. If you are an American, you couldn't be an AP in America anyway - it is a foreign exchange program. (Not that you couldn't find a family to nanny for who has the same desire for their relationship with their live-in nanny as host families do for their APs.) The terminology used says it all - as a nanny, you refer to the mom and dad as MB and DB. APs use the term "host mom" (HM) and "host dad" (HD) because the relationship - while not really parental - is meant to be something more than boss-employee.

You also probably are forgetting that APs and you (if you are an American citizen in America) are entirely differently situated. APs are here for a specific program, on a specific visa, and couldn't be here for a full year otherwise. APs choose the AP program (hopefully) knowing its rules, goals, etc. And the AP chose to sign up for this program, with these rules, and these expectations in order to get that visa and have an American experience for a year - which they couldn't have had otherwise. (It's not within most people's means to come here on a student visa - very expensive, and you are not allowed to work to support yourself. Tourist visas don't last a year. And in case you are forgetting, America is a very anti-immigrant country these days, so if you are not from a wealthy western country, American makes it VERY hard for you to come here for any extended period of time.) When you chose to be a live-in nanny, it was probably for the sole reason that this was a job and nothing more. You probably negotiated your terms with the family you chose to work for; you were not part of a program, and the expectation was that you would be a live-in employee, most likely, and if there was more to the relationship, all well and good - but I doubt it was part of your contract, and there were no program goals and expectations that you and your host family supposedly were interested in buying into and following regarding family/cultural exchange.

[Anonymous]

While I think 12:34's sarcasm may have been a little over the top, her point is solid. APs just really need to be clear and consistent on what they want. It is completely 100% fine (assuming they presented this at match) if they don't want to be part of the family and would rather be treated like an employee. There are host families looking for that. But being an employee doesn't mean working your day, then going upstairs while your host mom cooks dinner, then coming downstairs to eat the dinner your host mom cooked, putting your plate in the sink and running back upstairs. It means you make your own dinner then.

This is not addressed on this thread, but there are also plenty of stories I've heard from au pairs who complain they are not being "treated like a member of the family" with regards to benefits to them - like being asked to come on vacation or out to dinner - but then aren't willing to act like a member of the family when it involves, say, taking 30 minutes to sit and chat with the host family during dinner. It goes both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP et al, who expect the AP to eat dinner with you, plus help prep, cook, and clean up are abusing your AP.

TOTALLY agree! Such abuse to include your AP in family dinner time. Will re-think this whole "part of the family" thing because of your post, definitely! Will start cooking separate gourmet dinners for my AP and bringing them to her room on a silver platter, setting a little table for her in her room, putting her napkin on her lap, then coming back to gather the dishes and clean them for her. Will then draw back her sheets, fill up her tub with bubble bath, and give her a pedicure. PHEW! Glad I have learned from you how not to abuse my AP before it's too late.....

You are an abusing horse's ass. If I were her, I'd rather eat Dinty Moorestew from a can than have to look or listen to you while eating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While I think 12:34's sarcasm may have been a little over the top, her point is solid. APs just really need to be clear and consistent on what they want. It is completely 100% fine (assuming they presented this at match) if they don't want to be part of the family and would rather be treated like an employee. There are host families looking for that. But being an employee doesn't mean working your day, then going upstairs while your host mom cooks dinner, then coming downstairs to eat the dinner your host mom cooked, putting your plate in the sink and running back upstairs. It means you make your own dinner then.

This is not addressed on this thread, but there are also plenty of stories I've heard from au pairs who complain they are not being "treated like a member of the family" with regards to benefits to them - like being asked to come on vacation or out to dinner - but then aren't willing to act like a member of the family when it involves, say, taking 30 minutes to sit and chat with the host family during dinner. It goes both ways.

You are making a pretty big assumption that it DOES go both ways. It so often doesn't. If the only way you include your AP in being a member of the family is when there is work to be done, can you really be surprised so many of us want nothing to do with it? Families go on vacation and leave APs home, they fail to recognize their birthdays, they bitch and moan about visitors, they're stingy with car use, but of course when there is work to be shared or it'd be nice to have an extra adult "family member", then yes the program is definitely about cultural exchange....

[Anonymous]

16:25 - I said IT GOES BOTH WAYS. So just like an au pair who is pouting because her host family isn't inviting her on their vacations and isn't she supposed to be like a family member??? But that same au pair refuses to do anything beyond keeping the children alive and helps herself to the dinner her host parents make every night and then leaves her plate and runs upstairs. So it goes with the host parents that cry "we're supposed to be like family!" When asking an au pair to clean their laundry or refuse to allow visitors but then expect their au pair to bend over backwards for them. It goes both ways. Like I said.

[Anonymous]

And anyways, you post in this board that you want your au pair to come on vacation with you or eat dinner with you and all the former live-in nannies come on to moan about how unfair it is to expect your au pair to...go on vacation with you and eat dinner with you.

[Anonymous]

Long-time nanny here. The problem is that when your role all day is taking care of the kids, they don't just automatically shut off and only go to the parents once the parents are there. They still whine, complain, ask for attention, act up, etc. to you, the nanny or AP. Basically, MB and DB get home, you are supposedly "off", but you really just become a 3rd parent. Everyone is then dealing with the kids. Or one/two are dealing with the kids while the other one/two make dinner or clean up. The point is, it is work for everyone. No matter how much you love the family you work for, it is still work. I have stayed for dinners with my nanny family, and it felt like work. As much as I adored them, it just did. Work I wasn't paid for after a long, hard day. Sorry, it is true. Same with parties at their house, or outings with them that I was invited to as a guest, like a football game. Same for trips with them. It is just the nature of it.

[Anonymous]

This isn't just an au pair situation. When live-in nannies or au pairs share in family meals then they share in the prep and clean up. In most live-in nanny situations and all au pair situations room and board is included which includes meals. This doesn't mean that the MB prepares separate meals for the live-in or au pair, serves them and cleans up after them. It means that the live in or au pair is invited to share the family meals and they share in the work responsibility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This isn't just an au pair situation. When live-in nannies or au pairs share in family meals then they share in the prep and clean up. In most live-in nanny situations and all au pair situations room and board is included which includes meals. This doesn't mean that the MB prepares separate meals for the live-in or au pair, serves them and cleans up after them. It means that the live in or au pair is invited to share the family meals and they share in the work responsibility.

The final gist is- if you want to eat the food your HP prepares then you need to help clean up. If you don't want to help with dinner clean up, then wait until they are done eating and make your own dinner (which you will then need to clean up from anyway). But don't expect me to cook for you and then walk away expecting me to clean up after you too. Not gonna happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't just an au pair situation. When live-in nannies or au pairs share in family meals then they share in the prep and clean up. In most live-in nanny situations and all au pair situations room and board is included which includes meals. This doesn't mean that the MB prepares separate meals for the live-in or au pair, serves them and cleans up after them. It means that the live in or au pair is invited to share the family meals and they share in the work responsibility.

The final gist is- if you want to eat the food your HP prepares then you need to help clean up. If you don't want to help with dinner clean up, then wait until they are done eating and make your own dinner (which you will then need to clean up from anyway). But don't expect me to cook for you and then walk away expecting me to clean up after you too. Not gonna happen.

Tell her not to touch your leftovers either!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't just an au pair situation. When live-in nannies or au pairs share in family meals then they share in the prep and clean up. In most live-in nanny situations and all au pair situations room and board is included which includes meals. This doesn't mean that the MB prepares separate meals for the live-in or au pair, serves them and cleans up after them. It means that the live in or au pair is invited to share the family meals and they share in the work responsibility.

The final gist is- if you want to eat the food your HP prepares then you need to help clean up. If you don't want to help with dinner clean up, then wait until they are done eating and make your own dinner (which you will then need to clean up from anyway). But don't expect me to cook for you and then walk away expecting me to clean up after you too. Not gonna happen.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that AP should eat with the family but offer no help. The issue is that some families make it an expectation that she will eat with the family, help with the kids while dinner is made, and clean up after, all without pay. What many posters have said is, that no matter how you dress it up, it is work for her and after a long day at work she very well may just want a pb&j in her room and not have to worry about "helping". She may eat with you once or twice during the week, but she may not be up to it every night, and I feel like if she isn't being paid you can't require it of her nor should you be surprised or annoyed when she doesn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This isn't just an au pair situation. When live-in nannies or au pairs share in family meals then they share in the prep and clean up. In most live-in nanny situations and all au pair situations room and board is included which includes meals. This doesn't mean that the MB prepares separate meals for the live-in or au pair, serves them and cleans up after them. It means that the live in or au pair is invited to share the family meals and they share in the work responsibility.

The final gist is- if you want to eat the food your HP prepares then you need to help clean up. If you don't want to help with dinner clean up, then wait until they are done eating and make your own dinner (which you will then need to clean up from anyway). But don't expect me to cook for you and then walk away expecting me to clean up after you too. Not gonna happen.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that AP should eat with the family but offer no help. The issue is that some families make it an expectation that she will eat with the family, help with the kids while dinner is made, and clean up after, all without pay. What many posters have said is, that no matter how you dress it up, it is work for her and after a long day at work she very well may just want a pb&j in her room and not have to worry about "helping". She may eat with you once or twice during the week, but she may not be up to it every night, and I feel like if she isn't being paid you can't require it of her nor should you be surprised or annoyed when she doesn't.

Sure, and we have all agreed that's wrong. So we're all in agreement then?