Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi,
While I hope there is more that led to your conversation with your son you aren't sharing, I want to offer a thought to all the judgy McJudgersons on this thread.

I have twins. One is so sweet he literally mails love notes to relatives every day. The other is hell.on.wheels. Every day is a constant battle with this child. I love him to the moon and back but he often talks back, is rude, and is disrespectful. We ground him (take away his favorite toys), put him in time out, and always give him consequences. It doesn't stop the nonstop struggle with him and his behavior.

Before I had kids I thought a kids behavior was completely a product of nurture. If you spent any time with my sons who have been together and treated the same since the day they were born, you would see how big a role nature plays in a child's temperament.

You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that you call one "sweet" and call the other "hell on wheels" and "disrespectful?"

NP here. I have two kids and the same experience. They came out of the womb that way. The differences between them are innumerable and stark. Their core personalities would not change no matter what I might do, I can promise you that. Could their behavior be affected? Yes. I get that my behavior and habits affects their behavior. It could get better or worse. But their personalities I have no control over. One is sweet and the other is high strung and challenging. It is what it is.

I have the same type of situation - a dd who is high energy, high strung and oppositional just because. My dh has always been really proud of her and tells her that her stubborn streak, smarts and strength of character are going to get her far in life. It is frustrating trying to do daily tasks like getting her in the car but I do think his continual praise of her fundamental character is important and helps her self regulate. My son is an "easy" personality but I hope we don't let our dd think that he is better in any way.

I don't disagree with the above posters on different personalities/temperaments. I do think focusing on the negative traits associated with the temprement in your descriptors is where the problem begins

Anonymous wrote:I forgot a few things:

When you start selectively ignoring behaviors, the behavior will get worse before it gets better. This is because the child is used to getting attention when they do that behavior, and you're breaking the cycle - it takes time.

Also, the book says to change one thing per week - which is really important. If you only change one thing every week, you can stay motivated to continue moving through the steps, if you try to change more than one thing a week its alot for the kid, and its a lot for the parents.

My son also behaved perfectly at school - his teachers never had any problems with him whatsoever. So it was the dynamic at home that needed to change. I don't know what you should do if your child is also having issues at school. There are also problems with my son's dad saying things to my son that he shouldn't, saying bad things about me, telling my son that I'm parenting badly, that I'm making bad decisions, etc. (there's a reason I have sole physical custody). The good thing was that the person I worked with was able to give me strategies that WORK in my house, and help me figure out how to reassure my son when his dad said inappropriate things.

Anyway, my son is literally the most argumentative person on the planet. If he wasn't so interested in science and math I would think he would definitely turn out to be a lawyer.

21:28 here. Thank you for taking the time to write this out. Some good advice here.

Anonymous wrote:OP, Christmas is about grace - love and forgiveness and hope freely given. That's the Christmas story in a nutshell. I'm sure its frustrating, but see if you can de-link your kid's behavior from his Christmas gifts. He gets Christmas gifts because you love him unconditionally (even when he is a brat), and because of the joy the whole family has when opening gifts on Christmas morning. Christmas gifts aren't rewards or bribes or incentives - they are love, freely given. Your boy needs your love now, while you two are working on behavior together.

+1

Great response. Christmas is about love freely given. Forgiveness freely given. Hope and generosity. (I'm not even really a Christian anymore but I believe this!)

What you are teaching him is that Christmas is about being rewarded by the surveillance state for compliance. God and Santa are watching? WTF?

What I really wonder is what kind of response you actually expected from shouting, "What is wrong with you?" at a little boy. Did you think he would say, "Oh, Mommy, I just realized that I am ungrateful and disrespectful. I am flawed inside, as you have taught me. Please shame my bad behavior out of me so that I will earn your approval."

You hurt him. There is no way that a person could say, "What is wrong with you?" without it being perceived as purposefully hurtful. His response seems entirely appropriate. What IS wrong with you, OP? Why are you so angry with him? Why are you so cruel? What is so empty in your life that you have to lash out at a kid who hasn't yet learned how to behave?

Your son hasn't yet LEARNED. You are his teacher, and you have not taught him well so far. That is not his fault. He needs to be taught differently and more effectively. The Kazdin method could help you, PEP could help you, but I fear you're beyond help because you have internalized the lie that he is a bad kid and that he doesn't LIKE you. (I don't like you. I don't blame him.)

Have you sought therapy for yourself? You sound desperately, desperately unhappy and you are putting it all on your kid.

If you love him, you might write him a note like this. "Son, I am sorry that I was so mean in the car this morning. I love you. I have loved you since the minute I knew you existed. I have been really frustrated and hurt because we are not getting along lately, and I want us to do better. I want to treat you with more kindness and love. I hope I can teach you how to be more kind and loving, too. Can we agree on a new rule together? I'd like the rule to be, "In our family we are kind to each other." What do you think of that rule? Love, Mom."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for all of the replies.

I realize I did not give much of the story of what happened before the exchange. DS needed multiple reminders to get up and get dressed, complained about breakfast, whined about putting on shoes and jacket, screamed when backpack strap got caught, and dawdled getting ready to go out the door. All of this meant we were ten minutes late going out the door. When I opened the trunk of the car to get my umbrella, he just stood behind me when I thought he would have been getting in the car. This is when I asked what was wrong with him, as in, you know to get in the car, and we are running late, so why are you just standing there?

To the better parents with perfect children and to those who feel sad for my kid, thank you for knowing how to parent well. Your children will be strong and I hope they will contribute to society. You cannot possibly know what it is like to deal daily with a volatile, explosive child. This child has told me multiple times "I am going to kill you" (no, I have never said that to him) and once said he would tell a police officer to shoot me. Many mornings I am exhausted just by the time I drop him off at school. The stress of parenting this child is, in fact, slowly killing me.

I have more than one, and this is the only child that acts this way, so I do not think it is not completely what I am doing wrong as a parent. Thanks to 10:21 and others who commented on having children with different temperaments. Yes, I am a flawed human, but I do try. Last year I spent $1500+ out of pocket on family therapy, which did not seem to help much. 19:43, I would appreciate the name of your psychologist.

And for those who needed to comment on ruining Christmas by leaving coal, I was venting and said I WISH I could do that. Of course this child will get something from Santa.

OP here again. It seems many of those commenting missed this second post I added to provide a little context.

Thank you again to those who offered helpful comments. I am glad there are so many good parents out there. I will try some of the suggested readings and classes and approaches.

Make sure to pick one method and use it for at least 3-4 weeks to see if things gets better. The behavior will get worse before it gets better, in my case that was a short lived period of time though - only a few days.

"DS needed multiple reminders to get up and get dressed, complained about breakfast, whined about putting on shoes and jacket, screamed when backpack strap got caught, and dawdled getting ready to go out the door. All of this meant we were ten minutes late going out the door. When I opened the trunk of the car to get my umbrella, he just stood behind me when I thought he would have been getting in the car. This is when I asked what was wrong with him, as in, you know to get in the car, and we are running late, so why are you just standing there?"

He is six. I know there are a lot of self-sufficient kids on here, or so the parents would have you believe, but my six year old does this sort of thing often. Of course if I tell her we are going to Wendy's, or the waterslide park, she is miraculously able to dress herself head to toe and jump in the car without assistance in record time. Sometimes I thing she wants to stay a baby, and feel like a "little" kid again and that my helping her - even with things she can already do, or I don't have time for - makes her feel loved. It is the worst midweek when she is worn out form school and aftercare.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for all of the replies.

I realize I did not give much of the story of what happened before the exchange. DS needed multiple reminders to get up and get dressed, complained about breakfast, whined about putting on shoes and jacket, screamed when backpack strap got caught, and dawdled getting ready to go out the door. All of this meant we were ten minutes late going out the door. When I opened the trunk of the car to get my umbrella, he just stood behind me when I thought he would have been getting in the car. This is when I asked what was wrong with him, as in, you know to get in the car, and we are running late, so why are you just standing there?

To the better parents with perfect children and to those who feel sad for my kid, thank you for knowing how to parent well. Your children will be strong and I hope they will contribute to society. You cannot possibly know what it is like to deal daily with a volatile, explosive child. This child has told me multiple times "I am going to kill you" (no, I have never said that to him) and once said he would tell a police officer to shoot me. Many mornings I am exhausted just by the time I drop him off at school. The stress of parenting this child is, in fact, slowly killing me.

I have more than one, and this is the only child that acts this way, so I do not think it is not completely what I am doing wrong as a parent. Thanks to 10:21 and others who commented on having children with different temperaments. Yes, I am a flawed human, but I do try. Last year I spent $1500+ out of pocket on family therapy, which did not seem to help much. 19:43, I would appreciate the name of your psychologist.

And for those who needed to comment on ruining Christmas by leaving coal, I was venting and said I WISH I could do that. Of course this child will get something from Santa.

OP here again. It seems many of those commenting missed this second post I added to provide a little context.

Thank you again to those who offered helpful comments. I am glad there are so many good parents out there. I will try some of the suggested readings and classes and approaches.

"What's the matter with you" is TOTALLY RUDE.

You could say, "You seem upset today honey. I hope nothing happened that's got you down." That is sympathetic. That welcomes a conversation. That shows that you care how they feel.

"What is the matter with you"?!?!?! That makes it seem like their feelings make them broken somehow, or not up to par. The emphasis is on how they are making YOU feel, rather than how they feel. It is also an accusation. "What's wrong with you that you won't act the way I want?!" It's such a rude, rude question I am astonished anyone would defend it. There are a thousand kind, loving ways to say, "I notice that you seem unhappy and I love and care for you." That is going to get you a hell of a lot farther than "What's the matter with you?"

Who ARE these people who find the question, "What is the matter with you?" offensive? If I am being rude, crabby, and snappish with everyone around me, then it is perfectly fine for someone to ask me that question. For most normal people, getting asked that question signals that (a) they are being horrid and (b) they need to be nicer. Of course, it's a matter of tone. Usually if I ask that question, I may be signaling to someone that they're being difficult, but use a gentler tone of voice that invites them to vent about whatever is eating them.

I think the question "what's the matter with you" is rude. It implies that there's something wrong with the person, and that if there is some defect in them causing their unhappiness. If you know me well enough to call me out on something, you can just go ahead and say that I need to be nicer or that you feel I'm being mean. Asking someone "what's going on?" or "is something wrong" is fine. I also just think asking a 6 year old kid "what's the matter with you" is ridiculous. They don't know, or won't be able to articulate, in response to such a vague and open ended question.

You need to read the book How To Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I am just so so sad for your child.

I also wonder if this is the OP who had posted several months ago about her 6 year old (but it was a DD then) always "touching Mommy's things."

This poster: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/444729.page

No, that was me (not OP) and I got raked over the coals for my child breaking things of mine every week. No one thought it was a big deal but it got better but OP I totally feel for you. My child is still a big challenge and posting here is not a help. Trust me on this. I get it because I am right there with you and this is NOT necessarily a reflection of you or your parenting. Some kids are just more sullen, pessimistic, types. Mine is. I am tempted to do the coal thing but I wouldn't (and I know you wouldn't either) but I also have not gone overboard. Santa and Elf on the Shelf have had no effect so I am continuing iwth my Positive Parenting Solutions course. Highly recommend.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, Christmas is about grace - love and forgiveness and hope freely given. That's the Christmas story in a nutshell. I'm sure its frustrating, but see if you can de-link your kid's behavior from his Christmas gifts. He gets Christmas gifts because you love him unconditionally (even when he is a brat), and because of the joy the whole family has when opening gifts on Christmas morning. Christmas gifts aren't rewards or bribes or incentives - they are love, freely given. Your boy needs your love now, while you two are working on behavior together.

I love the response.

+1. I'd like to repost it in every thread where people are arguing about who is supposed to buy what for whom and whether it's rude to turn down one side dish at dinner and every other form of materialistic, petty, judgmental crap.

This is the essence of it all, right here. I'm going to print it and put it on my monitor.

I forgot a few things:

When you start selectively ignoring behaviors, the behavior will get worse before it gets better. This is because the child is used to getting attention when they do that behavior, and you're breaking the cycle - it takes time.

Also, the book says to change one thing per week - which is really important. If you only change one thing every week, you can stay motivated to continue moving through the steps, if you try to change more than one thing a week its alot for the kid, and its a lot for the parents.

My son also behaved perfectly at school - his teachers never had any problems with him whatsoever. So it was the dynamic at home that needed to change. I don't know what you should do if your child is also having issues at school. There are also problems with my son's dad saying things to my son that he shouldn't, saying bad things about me, telling my son that I'm parenting badly, that I'm making bad decisions, etc. (there's a reason I have sole physical custody). The good thing was that the person I worked with was able to give me strategies that WORK in my house, and help me figure out how to reassure my son when his dad said inappropriate things.

Anyway, my son is literally the most argumentative person on the planet. If he wasn't so interested in science and math I would think he would definitely turn out to be a lawyer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op,

It sounds like you need some help. Not therapy, but someone who can help ypu figure out how best to parent your child. All children are different, and you need to find some alternatives that work for you.

I agree. I did work with a child psychologist for 4 months to learn how to better parent my kid, and made small changes each week until things were more manageable. Working with a professional helped in several ways - he was able to tell me that my kid really is as awesome as everyone else says he is, he gave me permission to try the things I knew I needed to try but was being told not to do by other people, and he was able to help me make small changes that weren't overwhelming.

Now, my 6 year old is still strong willed, still the most stubborn person I've ever met, but we have a good routine at home, and tantrums are an every other week thing now instead of every day. Life is calmer, we're happier, and my son is happy and relaxed. Working with the psychologist was the best thing I ever did.

NP here. Would you mind sharing a few things you learned?

Sure! If you want, the book Parenting the Strongwilled Child by Forehand has all the steps, and they really do work. Having someone to talk to about it though kept me on track and held me accountable for making the changes, and also helped troubleshoot certain areas.

Primarily, that the relationship between parent and child has to come first. So the first thing we did was 10-15 minutes per day of a fun activity that my son was in complete control of - I didn't ask questions or give directions and just let him lead the activity. It works better if it's an open ended activity, so we usually did blocks or drawing. I would also kind of narrate what he was doing. It felt really silly, but taught me how to validate him when he was being good, which I then started using other times he was being good - you're reading that so well, or cool Lego design, or Whatever he's doing that I want him to continue doing. It also taught me that when you pay attention to the GOOD behavior you get more of it. I got into a rut where whenever my son was being good I snuck off to do something I needed to get done, when I really needed to spend that time with him to reinforce the behavior. The bad behavior is what you need to ignore (unless it's unsafe, and then I would put my son in his room for timeout).

Then, some behaviors are annoying but can be ignored safely and effectively. Tantrums? Do the dishes or read the newspaper or do something else. But stay calm! until the tantrum stops and then turn your attention back to the child. Learning how to effectively ignore unwanted behavior was invaluable. He's fighting about putting his shoes on? I just go make my coffee and get myself ready until he stops and then usually his shoes are still on before mine are.

A few other things are escaping me right now, but almost last we talked about giving effective instructions. Getting down on their level, looking them in the eye and saying, "DC, go brush your teeth now". It's a command, it's simple, it's easy to remember. Chain instructions are NOT effective, ie, "Go upstairs and brush teeth, floss, go potty, and put on pjs". They can't remember all of that, and may push back because it's overwhelming or because they don't remember. Then the cycle of frustration begins. Also ineffective, "go clean your room because grandma is coming over and blah blah blah" - you lose them with the reasoning when it comes first because they can't remember everything you said.

Sorry about typos, I'm typing on my phone and it's not being super cooperative.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op,

It sounds like you need some help. Not therapy, but someone who can help ypu figure out how best to parent your child. All children are different, and you need to find some alternatives that work for you.

I agree. I did work with a child psychologist for 4 months to learn how to better parent my kid, and made small changes each week until things were more manageable. Working with a professional helped in several ways - he was able to tell me that my kid really is as awesome as everyone else says he is, he gave me permission to try the things I knew I needed to try but was being told not to do by other people, and he was able to help me make small changes that weren't overwhelming.

Now, my 6 year old is still strong willed, still the most stubborn person I've ever met, but we have a good routine at home, and tantrums are an every other week thing now instead of every day. Life is calmer, we're happier, and my son is happy and relaxed. Working with the psychologist was the best thing I ever did.

NP here. Would you mind sharing a few things you learned?

Who ARE these people who find the question, "What is the matter with you?" offensive? If I am being rude, crabby, and snappish with everyone around me, then it is perfectly fine for someone to ask me that question. For most normal people, getting asked that question signals that (a) they are being horrid and (b) they need to be nicer. Of course, it's a matter of tone. Usually if I ask that question, I may be signaling to someone that they're being difficult, but use a gentler tone of voice that invites them to vent about whatever is eating them.

OP---you are going through a tough time. I do think the PPs who have recommended that you find moments to praise are spot on. Start there. I empathize. I have one that gives me fits about everything---every single thing is a knockdown drag out fight. His siblings are now old enough and observant enough to tell him that he would be a lot happier if he wasn't so difficult with me, but that doesn't seem to help.