Like here:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/345/409978.page#5826543

Anonymous wrote:

Are you the same one who asked Muslima to post a pic here with her veil on to garner sympathy?

Yes, Islam rejects trinity. A comparable comment from you would have been to say that you reject or even dislike Islams inheritance laws, or that you find it doesn't give women enough. Or even say it seems unfair to you. But to say inheritance laws treat women like children is an insult. Yes, it is also your opinion. But your opinion was also an insult. How can you hope to have an intellectual discussion about any religion if you choose to present opinions as insults?

I am absolutely not that poster. Read my post again - the relevant part is in bold now.

I am also not the poster who said Islam treats women like children. As I recall that happened once, 2-3 days ago, but it wasn't me. Like the other PP, I have always tried to be scrupulously respectful in my language here. (Unlike you, I know how ad hominems reflect on the arguer.)

Lots of people said they didn't like Islam's inheritance and divorce laws. What happened? You called them Islamophobes again and again. You cannot possibly deny having this reaction to the posters who refused to accept your arguments, because there's just too much evidence over multiple threads that you do so. You have this equation in your head

Not agreeing that Islam is perfect = Islamophobia

Multiple posters, me included, have told you that disagreement is different from Islamophobia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I respectfully disagree! Religion may be used as a context for discrimination. For example - saying Islam condones terrorism, or that Islam treats women like children, or that there is inequality or oppression of women under Islam, or that Muhammad is a pedophile, etc...

This is why muslims are trying to clarify our religious principles here, because our principles are misinterpreted and it has the effect of discriminating Muslims.

Interpretation is a matter of personal viewpoint. You may see men and women in Islam as equal. You may see Jesus and Moses in Islam as given respect. Someone else might not. You and that person have equally valid positions. When someone disagrees with you, they aren't necessarily misinterpreting your principles, because you don't have a monopoly on interpreting them.

How is asking Muslima to post a picture here without her veil to garner sympathy simply an expression of a difference of opinion?

How is accusing Muslims of trying to convert folks simply an expression of a difference of opinion?

How is saying our women are treated like children simply an expression of an opinion? Would it not suffice to say you think women should have greater autonomy? Your difference of opinion was expressed in an insulting way.

How is saying if this debate were in person it probably would have become violent because thats how Muslims are, simply an expression of a difference of opinion.

There are too many offenses to rehash. But no, this was not simply a difference of opinion. It was much more than that. It was clear discrimination against Islam and Muslima in particular.

No matter. I hope all has been clarified, regardless of whether your opinion of Islam changed. Time to move on.

I wonder why it is that you rehash the old arguments over and over, and then declare it's time to move on. You want people to move on, then stop bringing it up.

My opinion of Islam hasn't changed - have lived among them, married on, gave birth to one - know it too well to be shattered by an unhinged chick.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does "Christian-evangelical-crusader-Islamophobe" fell into the micro aggression categories?

It was an emotional reaction to the hostility on these threads toward Islam for which I have apologized already. Muslims have yet to receive any apology for the Islam bashing on DCUM, however.

You've posted many, many insults and only one apology. It's OK to doubt its sincerity. No one expressed hostility to you PERSONALLY yet you went to great lengths to invent personal insults for posters who were less than impressed with your faith. One can be forgiven for not believing the current, apologetic, peaceful you.

You (and others) insulted my faith and the faith of 1.6 billion people by
- saying we are all out to convert folks
- saying our faith treats women like children
- saying women of our faith are oppressed due to inequality
- accusing the only two muslim women of lying and misleading people
- saying our prophet was a pedophile
- asking Muslima to post a pic of herself w/o her veil to garner sympathy
The list goes on and on...its not easy to remain polite when the agenda seems to be to vilify Islam. And that makes it deeply personal because I love my faith. Still, you need not accept my apology and you may find whatever justification to continue with the insults. I will ignore.

Not the PP you're talking to, but after 50+ pages, this is all you have? Mohamed was called pedophile once about a month ago. Another bad actor claimed, maybe two weeks ago, that Muslima posted a pic of herself in a veil in order to get sympathy.

But for the rest, you are confusing "vilifying Islam" with not agreeing with you that, for example, equality for women can involve legal inequality in divorce, inheritance et cetera. Also with not agreeing with you on other issues.

Can we point out that you feel free to denounce the Trinity in multiple posts and nobody has ever accused you of vilifying Christianity. They had no problem with you denouncing the a trinity. But they did question your motives for repeatedly writing that "Muslims believe in Jesus too" as if it were the same Jesus and the same message. Implying that Christians share your view that Jesus was a Muslim and supported the Islamic system is quite the micro/macro aggression. That aggression from you is why, I'm guessing, your motives got questioned.

Signed, the poster you called a bad cook with a husband who is about to divorce her and with a druggie son

Are you the same one who asked Muslima to post a pic here with her veil on to garner sympathy?

Yes, Islam rejects trinity. A comparable comment from you would have been to say that you reject or even dislike Islams inheritance laws, or that you find it doesn't give women enough. Or even say it seems unfair to you. But to say inheritance laws treat women like children is an insult. Yes, it is also your opinion. But your opinion was also an insult. How can you hope to have an intellectual discussion about any religion if you choose to present opinions as insults?

Anonymous wrote:

I think there is more than one Muslim PP. One of them stated what her view was of the trinity but added she didn't know Christianity well. Two other PPs came in with a descriptive explanation because this PP seemed to be asking for an explanation of the trinity rather than just seeking to denounce it. This PP didn't sound like the Muslim PP who was exercised over people not accepting her explanations of voting rights and oath taking because the latter PP has never shown any inclination to admit knowledge gaps.

I'm fairly positive that OP is the poster who said at least twice on the Biblical History thread that the Gospel of Thomas reaffirmed her belief in Islam because it purportedly said that Jesus is not divine.

My point is that if Muslims, whether it was OP or another Muslim, can disagree with various points of Christian theology, then others should be able to disagree with points of Islamic theology without being accused of vilifying Islam or micro aggressions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I respectfully disagree! Religion may be used as a context for discrimination. For example - saying Islam condones terrorism, or that Islam treats women like children, or that there is inequality or oppression of women under Islam, or that Muhammad is a pedophile, etc...

This is why muslims are trying to clarify our religious principles here, because our principles are misinterpreted and it has the effect of discriminating Muslims.

Interpretation is a matter of personal viewpoint. You may see men and women in Islam as equal. You may see Jesus and Moses in Islam as given respect. Someone else might not. You and that person have equally valid positions. When someone disagrees with you, they aren't necessarily misinterpreting your principles, because you don't have a monopoly on interpreting them.

How is asking Muslima to post a picture here without her veil to garner sympathy simply an expression of a difference of opinion?

How is accusing Muslims of trying to convert folks simply an expression of a difference of opinion?

How is saying our women are treated like children simply an expression of an opinion? Would it not suffice to say you think women should have greater autonomy? Your difference of opinion was expressed in an insulting way.

How is saying if this debate were in person it probably would have become violent because thats how Muslims are, simply an expression of a difference of opinion.

There are too many offenses to rehash. But no, this was not simply a difference of opinion. It was much more than that. It was clear discrimination against Islam and Muslima in particular.

No matter. I hope all has been clarified, regardless of whether your opinion of Islam changed. Time to move on.

- Nobody, but nobody ever told Muslima to post a picture without her veil. Whoever that was claimed that the reason Muslima posted a pic with a veil was in order to garner sympathy. I don't agree with that poster. However, while s/he didn't tell Muslima what to do, the obvious alternative is to not post any picture at all. So, you just made up the part about telling Muslima to post a pic without the veil.
- Re conversion, people are naturally wondering why you keep saying that Christians and Muslims both revere the same Jesus. Really, only the guy's name is the same, and to Christians it seems insulting because we know you think Jesus is actually a Muslim. Because this seems odd and insulting to people, they wonder why you keep doing it, and conversion is one theory. So give us another reason for why your language often tries to sweep Christianity up into Islam.
- I didn't make the comment about women being treated as children. But that sounds like an opinion to me. You have an opinion about the trinity, that it's wrong, and you express that opinion a lot. I don't see how that's different.
- I don't remember anybody posting about what would happen if this debate were in person. If it happened, it was several weeks ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does "Christian-evangelical-crusader-Islamophobe" fell into the micro aggression categories?

It was an emotional reaction to the hostility on these threads toward Islam for which I have apologized already. Muslims have yet to receive any apology for the Islam bashing on DCUM, however.

You've posted many, many insults and only one apology. It's OK to doubt its sincerity. No one expressed hostility to you PERSONALLY yet you went to great lengths to invent personal insults for posters who were less than impressed with your faith. One can be forgiven for not believing the current, apologetic, peaceful you.

You (and others) insulted my faith and the faith of 1.6 billion people by
- saying we are all out to convert folks
- saying our faith treats women like children
- saying women of our faith are oppressed due to inequality
- accusing the only two muslim women of lying and misleading people
- saying our prophet was a pedophile
- asking Muslima to post a pic of herself w/o her veil to garner sympathy
The list goes on and on...its not easy to remain polite when the agenda seems to be to vilify Islam. And that makes it deeply personal because I love my faith. Still, you need not accept my apology and you may find whatever justification to continue with the insults. I will ignore.

I can see it wasn't easy for you. I also don't think you really regret insulting people due to your choice of insults - it's very common in the Muslim discourse to insinuate that non-Muslim women are half-naked, STD-ridden sluts.

I never posted anything in the slightest bit insulting to you personally.

I'm still curious why "evangelical christian crusader" was an insult of choice for you when you knew nothing, nothing at all about the faith of the poster you were arguing with. Why is that? Why not, for instance, a "dirty Hindu" or a "dirty Jew"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does "Christian-evangelical-crusader-Islamophobe" fell into the micro aggression categories?

It was an emotional reaction to the hostility on these threads toward Islam for which I have apologized already. Muslims have yet to receive any apology for the Islam bashing on DCUM, however.

You've posted many, many insults and only one apology. It's OK to doubt its sincerity. No one expressed hostility to you PERSONALLY yet you went to great lengths to invent personal insults for posters who were less than impressed with your faith. One can be forgiven for not believing the current, apologetic, peaceful you.

You (and others) insulted my faith and the faith of 1.6 billion people by
- saying we are all out to convert folks
- saying our faith treats women like children
- saying women of our faith are oppressed due to inequality
- accusing the only two muslim women of lying and misleading people
- saying our prophet was a pedophile
- asking Muslima to post a pic of herself w/o her veil to garner sympathy
The list goes on and on...its not easy to remain polite when the agenda seems to be to vilify Islam. And that makes it deeply personal because I love my faith. Still, you need not accept my apology and you may find whatever justification to continue with the insults. I will ignore.

Not the PP you're talking to, but after 50+ pages, this is all you have? Mohamed was called pedophile once about a month ago. Another bad actor claimed, maybe two weeks ago, that Muslima posted a pic of herself in a veil in order to get sympathy.

But for the rest, you are confusing "vilifying Islam" with not agreeing with you that, for example, equality for women can involve legal inequality in divorce, inheritance et cetera. Also with not agreeing with you on other issues.

Can we point out that you feel free to denounce the Trinity in multiple posts and nobody has ever accused you of vilifying Christianity. They had no problem with you denouncing the a trinity. But they did question your motives for repeatedly writing that "Muslims believe in Jesus too" as if it were the same Jesus and the same message. Implying that Christians share your view that Jesus was a Muslim and supported the Islamic system is quite the micro/macro aggression. That aggression from you is why, I'm guessing, your motives got questioned.

Signed, the poster you called a bad cook with a husband who is about to divorce her and with a druggie son

I think there is more than one Muslim PP. One of them stated what her view was of the trinity but added she didn't know Christianity well. Two other PPs came in with a descriptive explanation because this PP seemed to be asking for an explanation of the trinity rather than just seeking to denounce it. This PP didn't sound like the Muslim PP who was exercised over people not accepting her explanations of voting rights and oath taking because the latter PP has never shown any inclination to admit knowledge gaps.

A non-Muslim PP looked up the verse in question on the voting issue, said the Arabic in that verse did not support as PP contended that it was directed at women as well as men but actually found much stronger evidence elsewhere in the sura that it was directed at women as well as men. Strangely, Muslim PP did not thank non-Muslim PP for laying the argument to rest.

This Muslim PP may or not be the same PP who misconstrued information on demographics of Muslims in the US and resorted to name calling of other PPs. It may well be the same PP who asserted women have equity in Islam without qualifying it to her view of equality or who said Muslims believe in Jesus as well without qualifying it. On the latter, I am inclined to be very forgiving--Muslims do believe in Jesus, but as a prophet, not as God the Son and someone not very versed in Christianity may not realize Christians would view that as a crucial difference to point out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I respectfully disagree! Religion may be used as a context for discrimination. For example - saying Islam condones terrorism, or that Islam treats women like children, or that there is inequality or oppression of women under Islam, or that Muhammad is a pedophile, etc...

This is why muslims are trying to clarify our religious principles here, because our principles are misinterpreted and it has the effect of discriminating Muslims.

Interpretation is a matter of personal viewpoint. You may see men and women in Islam as equal. You may see Jesus and Moses in Islam as given respect. Someone else might not. You and that person have equally valid positions. When someone disagrees with you, they aren't necessarily misinterpreting your principles, because you don't have a monopoly on interpreting them.

How is asking Muslima to post a picture here without her veil to garner sympathy simply an expression of a difference of opinion?

How is accusing Muslims of trying to convert folks simply an expression of a difference of opinion?

How is saying our women are treated like children simply an expression of an opinion? Would it not suffice to say you think women should have greater autonomy? Your difference of opinion was expressed in an insulting way.

How is saying if this debate were in person it probably would have become violent because thats how Muslims are, simply an expression of a difference of opinion.

There are too many offenses to rehash. But no, this was not simply a difference of opinion. It was much more than that. It was clear discrimination against Islam and Muslima in particular.

No matter. I hope all has been clarified, regardless of whether your opinion of Islam changed. Time to move on.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does "Christian-evangelical-crusader-Islamophobe" fell into the micro aggression categories?

It was an emotional reaction to the hostility on these threads toward Islam for which I have apologized already. Muslims have yet to receive any apology for the Islam bashing on DCUM, however.

You've posted many, many insults and only one apology. It's OK to doubt its sincerity. No one expressed hostility to you PERSONALLY yet you went to great lengths to invent personal insults for posters who were less than impressed with your faith. One can be forgiven for not believing the current, apologetic, peaceful you.

You (and others) insulted my faith and the faith of 1.6 billion people by
- saying we are all out to convert folks
- saying our faith treats women like children
- saying women of our faith are oppressed due to inequality
- accusing the only two muslim women of lying and misleading people
- saying our prophet was a pedophile
- asking Muslima to post a pic of herself w/o her veil to garner sympathy
The list goes on and on...its not easy to remain polite when the agenda seems to be to vilify Islam. And that makes it deeply personal because I love my faith. Still, you need not accept my apology and you may find whatever justification to continue with the insults. I will ignore.

Not the PP you're talking to, but after 50+ pages, this is all you have? Mohamed was called pedophile once about a month ago. Another bad actor claimed, maybe two weeks ago, that Muslima posted a pic of herself in a veil in order to get sympathy.

But for the rest, you are confusing "vilifying Islam" with not agreeing with you that, for example, equality for women can involve legal inequality in divorce, inheritance et cetera. Also with not agreeing with you on other issues.

Can we point out that you feel free to denounce the Trinity in multiple posts and nobody has ever accused you of vilifying Christianity. They had no problem with you denouncing the a trinity. But they did question your motives for repeatedly writing that "Muslims believe in Jesus too" as if it were the same Jesus and the same message. Implying that Christians share your view that Jesus was a Muslim and supported the Islamic system is quite the micro/macro aggression. That aggression from you is why, I'm guessing, your motives got questioned.

Signed, the poster you called a bad cook with a husband who is about to divorce her and with a druggie son

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
3. Pathology of Different Religious Groups: Statements and behaviors in which individuals equate certain religious practices or traditions as being abnormal, sinful, or deviant (e.g., telling someone that they are in the “wrong” religion).
4. Assumption of One's Own Religious Identity as the Norm: Comments or behaviors that convey people’s presumption that their religion is the standard and behaves accordingly (e.g., greeting someone “Merry Christmas” or saying “God bless you” after someone sneezes conveys one’s perception that everyone is Christian or believes in God).

Muslims are abundantly, stupefyingly guilty of #3. "Correct it with your hand, correct it with your word, and you can't do either, at the very least hate it in your heart."

#4 is BS. You feel micro-aggressed upon when someone tells you God bless you after you sneezed? For real?

Micro aggression is not necessarily intentional discrimination. The person committing it may actually be well intentioned or have no idea what they are saying. But why would anyone wish a stranger Merry Christmas or say "bless you " to a person not knowing if they welcome such comments. We live in a pluralistic community. There are atheists who don't believe in God. Why not acknowledge that? There are people who do not celebrate Christmas. Why not acknowledge this too?

Total false argument here. My MIL is an atheist who always says "God bless you" when someone sneezes. In fact, she corrects my children if they do not say it. It is simply a social nicety. Relax already!

Just because your mother inlaw insists on everyone blessing those who sneeze does not mean it is accepted by everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does "Christian-evangelical-crusader-Islamophobe" fell into the micro aggression categories?

It was an emotional reaction to the hostility on these threads toward Islam for which I have apologized already. Muslims have yet to receive any apology for the Islam bashing on DCUM, however.

You've posted many, many insults and only one apology. It's OK to doubt its sincerity. No one expressed hostility to you PERSONALLY yet you went to great lengths to invent personal insults for posters who were less than impressed with your faith. One can be forgiven for not believing the current, apologetic, peaceful you.

You (and others) insulted my faith and the faith of 1.6 billion people by
- saying we are all out to convert folks
- saying our faith treats women like children
- saying women of our faith are oppressed due to inequality
- accusing the only two muslim women of lying and misleading people
- saying our prophet was a pedophile
- asking Muslima to post a pic of herself w/o her veil to garner sympathy
The list goes on and on...its not easy to remain polite when the agenda seems to be to vilify Islam. And that makes it deeply personal because I love my faith. Still, you need not accept my apology and you may find whatever justification to continue with the insults. I will ignore.

Anonymous wrote:I don't get the problem with "God bless you."

In fact, if OP thinks saying "Allah" in English is a problem, then presumably she'd be OK with "God bless you" over "Allah bless you." What about "Oh my God!"? Or is the problem really that a Christian or Jew is saying this to a Muslim?

Anyway, if OP thinks saying "Allah" is bad, over on the prayer thread somebody is calling God a sky fairy and hinky.

Maybe two different posters. I am the PP who thinks saying Allah in English is stylistically and theologically incorrect when speaking English.

Haven't posted on the God bless you thing, but I think "God bless you" --often shortened to bless you--is the accepted social thing to say when someone sneezes in English and has nothing to do with religion,

Will have to check out the prayer thread--sounds raucous!

I don't get the problem with "God bless you."

In fact, if OP thinks saying "Allah" in English is a problem, then presumably she'd be OK with "God bless you" over "Allah bless you." What about "Oh my God!"? Or is the problem really that a Christian or Jew is saying this to a Muslim?

Anyway, if OP thinks saying "Allah" is bad, over on the prayer thread somebody is calling God a sky fairy and hinky.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
3. Pathology of Different Religious Groups: Statements and behaviors in which individuals equate certain religious practices or traditions as being abnormal, sinful, or deviant (e.g., telling someone that they are in the “wrong” religion).
4. Assumption of One's Own Religious Identity as the Norm: Comments or behaviors that convey people’s presumption that their religion is the standard and behaves accordingly (e.g., greeting someone “Merry Christmas” or saying “God bless you” after someone sneezes conveys one’s perception that everyone is Christian or believes in God).

Muslims are abundantly, stupefyingly guilty of #3. "Correct it with your hand, correct it with your word, and you can't do either, at the very least hate it in your heart."

#4 is BS. You feel micro-aggressed upon when someone tells you God bless you after you sneezed? For real?

Micro aggression is not necessarily intentional discrimination. The person committing it may actually be well intentioned or have no idea what they are saying. But why would anyone wish a stranger Merry Christmas or say "bless you " to a person not knowing if they welcome such comments. We live in a pluralistic community. There are atheists who don't believe in God. Why not acknowledge that? There are people who do not celebrate Christmas. Why not acknowledge this too?

Total false argument here. My MIL is an atheist who always says "God bless you" when someone sneezes. In fact, she corrects my children if they do not say it. It is simply a social nicety. Relax already!