Anonymous
07/11/2011 10:42
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
if he insists on grad school, I'd suggest a master in accounting. can always use them.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 10:41
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
Def. not worth it if will just add to his debt. Definitely. Because even if he does get a big law job making big bucks in 3 years (sorry but unlikely from Univ. of Miami law school unless at very top of class), he'd have to stay for years and years to pay off all those loans. And what if he changes his mind or wants to do something else? I went to a top 20 law school with a good scholarship and managed to get out with only $40K in loans. Paid them off in 2 years at big law and then have been able to really think about what I want to be when I grow up (not a lawyer at a firm). I would never, ever have been able to do that with $150K in loans like some of my friends had. They are stuck, stuck in their big law jobs. And that was in a market when you could get a big law job (I graduated in 2003). I wouldn't discourage someone from law school generally because I actually liked it and like some aspects of being a lawyer but only if you can pay for it yourself or get scholarships.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 10:41
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
OP, I asked a similar question out of concern for my stepbrother earlier this year.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/148017.page
I completely understand your worries...this is 3 years and a 6 figure debt with uncertain job prospects we're talking about. My relative was not accepted to his top choices, but he is still determined to go and will reapply next year. I keep hoping he'll change his mind, but I've learned that sometimes you need to let people learn things for themselves. Best wishes to your family.
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/148017.page
I completely understand your worries...this is 3 years and a 6 figure debt with uncertain job prospects we're talking about. My relative was not accepted to his top choices, but he is still determined to go and will reapply next year. I keep hoping he'll change his mind, but I've learned that sometimes you need to let people learn things for themselves. Best wishes to your family.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 10:38
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
I am also going to say no, it sounds like a really bad idea for your brother.
He will need all the stars to align in order for this even arguably to be a worthwhile endeavor - he has to be at the very top of his class (and even then, he is not going to a top school, so that's not going to carry him very far with prospective employers), then has to manage to land a job that pays very well (getting a job AT ALL is going to be a challenge), then he has to find that he actually LIKES practicing law at said well-paying job (which - if it pays well - would most likely a big firm, which many people find they hate), and then he has to work there for years and years just to pay down his massive debt, finding that years down the road, he has basically broken even & not even saved much because his loan payments were so burdensome. And that is a best-case scenario!!
He will need all the stars to align in order for this even arguably to be a worthwhile endeavor - he has to be at the very top of his class (and even then, he is not going to a top school, so that's not going to carry him very far with prospective employers), then has to manage to land a job that pays very well (getting a job AT ALL is going to be a challenge), then he has to find that he actually LIKES practicing law at said well-paying job (which - if it pays well - would most likely a big firm, which many people find they hate), and then he has to work there for years and years just to pay down his massive debt, finding that years down the road, he has basically broken even & not even saved much because his loan payments were so burdensome. And that is a best-case scenario!!
Anonymous
07/11/2011 10:29
Subject: Law school-is it worth it?
My brother went to Miami for undergrad and loved it. He got a job at Goldman Sachs as an operations analyst and paid off his undergrad loans entirely in three years. Then he made the mistake of going back there for his law degree. He is now 150K in debt + credit card debt during the summers (could not get a summer gig beyond a 6 week judicial internship). He is completely unemployed and was actually suicidal last month (we talked him out of it, thankfully).
Anonymous
07/11/2011 10:24
Subject: Law school-is it worth it?
Law school was the worst decision of my life. I'll be paying for it, in one way or another, for the rest of my life. I took out huge loans, couldn't Pay them back after graduation. We are struggling financially and DH is continually pissed at me for it. Marriage in shambles. Miserable.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:58
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
Yeah, OP -- I'd suggest to your brother that he work and live very frugally until he has paid at least 25% of his student loans off. When you first graduate from college the loans just feel like "funny money" and you don't have a sense of what an albatross they will be and how hard it will be to pay them off. Tell him to pay off $25K of his loans first and see how hard it is, THEN he can make the decision to go back to college and take on more debt.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:44
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
I'll add to the chorus of no's here. If he's already $90k in debt, taking on law school debt is not worth it right now. The market is terrible, even for top-tier candidates from top-tier schools. I'm not saying everyone has to or should go Big Law and make 6 figures -- I'm at DOJ and have been since I graduated in 1999 -- but the reality is that your brother will have difficulty finding any job that allows him to reasonably pay back his loans, and that debt is going to follow him around and affect his overall quality of life for decades.
If he really thinks he wants to be a lawyer, maybe he could try to find some work as a paralegal or legal assistant somewhere for a year or two? Work on paying down the undergrad loans, and use the time to talk to practicing attorneys, perhaps retake the LSAT and try to get into a state school with slightly lower tuition, etc. Law school will still be there in another year or two . . . .
If he really thinks he wants to be a lawyer, maybe he could try to find some work as a paralegal or legal assistant somewhere for a year or two? Work on paying down the undergrad loans, and use the time to talk to practicing attorneys, perhaps retake the LSAT and try to get into a state school with slightly lower tuition, etc. Law school will still be there in another year or two . . . .
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:35
Subject: Law school-is it worth it?
Anonymous wrote:Op here, thank you for the great replies.
Re: the MYOB reply, I understand where you are coming from, but my brother has been struggling with this for a few months and has been asking my opinion on it. I know there are a lot of lawyers on this site so I thought I would ask
OP, older sisters officially get a pass on MYOBing as long as they do not abuse the privilege!
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:26
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
Anonymous wrote:I am going to disagree with others. It seems that the lawyers on this board equate graduate level education as simply a means to a quick pay off or an automatic upper level 6 figure salary. While I agree that your brother is not going to walk out of law school, land a big law job starting at 150K, and have his debt paid off in a few years, I think you are overlooking the long-term value of law school.
A law degree or masters degree does have value in a marketplace where everyone has a BA. The value of the degree will still carry weight in many industries. In many industries outside of lawfirms there is little knowledge or even concern as to which law schools were at which tiers. Law school curriculums do teach discipline, how to write, how to construct arguments, and how to follow process. It is unlikely that your brother has any of the skills exiting the party school experience you alluded to in your post. He will gain skills, maturity, and access to internships that may provide better networking opportunities than the types of paid jobs he could find now exiting with just a BA.
I think some are making false correlations that if someone went to law school but chose not to practice then that person's choice to go to law school was a mistake. I know a few CFOs who have law degrees rather than MBAs. In some organizations, they are better than the ones with the MBAs. In addition, many people pursue MAs or Phds which are more field specific than law and then choose careers that do not include teaching or research in the field.
idiotic advice. a JD does NOT help you in other industries. If you want a non-law job that requires you how to "think and write" (which you don't learn in law school in my opinion), then you are likely going to have to delete law school from your resume just to land the interview! makes sense, right? I actually went to Miami for law. Loved the school. But if he doesn't have a 50%+ scholarship like I did, then no chance would I consider it. Miami is very expensive, and ruining the rest of your life just so you can chase girls in South Beach for 3 years is NOT worth it.
Law firms are requiring less and less attorneys to do the work, with document review software and outsourcing research to India. That combined with more and more law graduates is a recipe for disaster.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:22
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
I think it depends on what you want out of it. I didn't go to a top tier school (but did go to school in D.C.) I graduated with nearly 200K in debt. I got a job with the feds and got on the income based repayment plan. My loan payments are managable (under $300 a month) and in 8.5 more years the government will forgive my debt (under the public service forgiveness plan). My entire reason to go to law school was to always work for the Feds (although I am not at teh agency I originally wanted to be at). Still, I enjoy my life now and I am happy with the education I got and the friends I made. So for me it worked out (I graduated in 2009).
If one is planning to go to law school becuase they think it is an easy way to make money then I wouldn't go. I also tend to say that if you can't get into a top tier school or aren't offered a good scholarship at a lower school it might not be worth it financially, but again I didn't do either of those things and I think it was still worth it for me.
If one is planning to go to law school becuase they think it is an easy way to make money then I wouldn't go. I also tend to say that if you can't get into a top tier school or aren't offered a good scholarship at a lower school it might not be worth it financially, but again I didn't do either of those things and I think it was still worth it for me.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:14
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
I am going to disagree with others. It seems that the lawyers on this board equate graduate level education as simply a means to a quick pay off or an automatic upper level 6 figure salary. While I agree that your brother is not going to walk out of law school, land a big law job starting at 150K, and have his debt paid off in a few years, I think you are overlooking the long-term value of law school.
A law degree or masters degree does have value in a marketplace where everyone has a BA. The value of the degree will still carry weight in many industries. In many industries outside of lawfirms there is little knowledge or even concern as to which law schools were at which tiers. Law school curriculums do teach discipline, how to write, how to construct arguments, and how to follow process. It is unlikely that your brother has any of the skills exiting the party school experience you alluded to in your post. He will gain skills, maturity, and access to internships that may provide better networking opportunities than the types of paid jobs he could find now exiting with just a BA.
I think some are making false correlations that if someone went to law school but chose not to practice then that person's choice to go to law school was a mistake. I know a few CFOs who have law degrees rather than MBAs. In some organizations, they are better than the ones with the MBAs. In addition, many people pursue MAs or Phds which are more field specific than law and then choose careers that do not include teaching or research in the field.
A law degree or masters degree does have value in a marketplace where everyone has a BA. The value of the degree will still carry weight in many industries. In many industries outside of lawfirms there is little knowledge or even concern as to which law schools were at which tiers. Law school curriculums do teach discipline, how to write, how to construct arguments, and how to follow process. It is unlikely that your brother has any of the skills exiting the party school experience you alluded to in your post. He will gain skills, maturity, and access to internships that may provide better networking opportunities than the types of paid jobs he could find now exiting with just a BA.
I think some are making false correlations that if someone went to law school but chose not to practice then that person's choice to go to law school was a mistake. I know a few CFOs who have law degrees rather than MBAs. In some organizations, they are better than the ones with the MBAs. In addition, many people pursue MAs or Phds which are more field specific than law and then choose careers that do not include teaching or research in the field.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:11
Subject: Law school-is it worth it?
OH HELL NO! Sorry I wish someone had stopped my sister 5 years ago. She graduated cum laude from American recently... great grades, law review, etc. but struggled to get 2L summer associate because of the economy. She spent her first 2 year out of law school doing glorified temp work (i.e. doc review for $25 an hr) and just recently got a GS-9 gov't job(read 50k/year, less than the full amt of loans for 1 yr of law school). Tell him to become a nurse practicioner if he wants to make money.
Anonymous
07/11/2011 09:06
Subject: Re:Law school-is it worth it?
I considered going to law school now (career changed), looked into it and found everything the PPs did. I determined I would be better off becoming a plumber (no school costs, apprentices do get paid although poorly, and eventually you can charge an arm and leg to fix someone's dripping faucet!) at this point if I wanted a career change and I would have less debt!
Anonymous
07/11/2011 08:57
Subject: Law school-is it worth it?
Anonymous wrote:Op here, thank you for the great replies.
Re: the MYOB reply, I understand where you are coming from, but my brother has been struggling with this for a few months and has been asking my opinion on it. I know there are a lot of lawyers on this site so I thought I would ask
Why doesn't your brother come on this site and ask?