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Anonymous
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I’m currently helping a relative with his law school application essays. He just graduated from college and is applying to some very prestigious schools. Recently, I’ve become concerned for him after reading all of these depressing articles from the last few years about the legal profession.
So far, I’ve kept my mouth shut because I don’t feel it’s my place to stomp on someone’s dream. However, he is 31 years old and I’m really scared for him getting into 6 figures of debt at this age with poor job prospects. He has low lsat scores and did not graduate from a traditionally accredited university, so I’m thinking he probably won’t get into these law schools he’s applying to anyway. So my question is, will these schools even accept someone with those credentials? Are there any ABA approved schools that will? If he does get in somewhere, should I continue to keep quiet or should I steer him towards those scary stories about new lawyers? I really don’t think he is informed about the reality of the situation. (Please no flaming, I’m genuinely concerned for my family member….) |
Anonymous
| Lawyer here. Given his low LSAT scores and non-traditional undergrad, he most likely will not give in UNLESS he has some sort of background or compelling circumstances that make him an interesting candidate. If I were you, I would speak up now - you are truly doing him a favor. I do not know any attorneys who I graduated law school with who have less than $100,000.00 in educational debt. It is not fun to be stuck with that type of monthly bill when you are unemployed. I wish someone had been as honest with me when I was applying. |
Anonymous
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Big firm lawyer here.
Honestly, there is no point for him to apply to law school if he has low lsats, went to an unaccredited university, and isn't independently wealthy. (Care to share his GPA and/or LSAT scores?) Even if he DOES get into a law school, it's going to be a bottom-tier one (the prestigiuos ones won't look at him unless there is something about him we don't know), which means he isn't going to get a high-paying job unless he is at the very top of his class AND has amazing connections. So, he'll most likely accumulate 6 figures of debt that he won't be able to pay off. It's a bad situation. I'd definitely share with him the stories you've read. It seems unfair to let him pay the hundreds of dollars just to apply to those schools. |
Anonymous
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What do you mean by "not traditionally accreditied university?" One of the online schools? From what you describe, I would say that he isn't going to get in to a top tier law school. I doesn't even sound like he will get into a lower tiered law school. I went to a state law school, which got me where I wanted to go, but that was almost 20 years ago. All schools are more competitive now.
I would keep my mouth shut and be supportive until he actually gets accepted somewhere. Once that happens, then you can start talking about finances and the reality of the legal profession these days. There is no point in creating stomping on a dream. If he has the credentials that you say he has, the rejection letters will do the stomping for him. You can be the supportive friend/relative. |
Anonymous
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No flames here.
THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA. I taught LSAT classes for 10 years and have 3 family members who are attorneys, so I've been around the block a bit. 1. Low LSAT scores are pretty much a knock-out blow. 1st tiers (prestigious schools) will not even bother looking at his applications. 2. Nontraditional students (those graduating undergrad at 31) are at a big disadvantage and will be passed over in the application process more often than not. It's not fair, but law school admissions are anything but fair. 3. He's likely to get into third-tiers turd schools that will charge $30K+ a year, and leave him with ZERO job prospects. 4. I don't like to make generalizations, but without stellar LSATs and a high GPA, he won't get into the schools that are de rigueur for entry into biglaw. 5. He is virtually assured to never get a job that pays more than he would get without a law degree. He'll be competing with a glut of recent law grads with much better credentials and grades. If he REALLY wants to go to law school, he's already non-traditional, so his best bet is to go to an INEXPENSIVE school and do the evening program, while working full- or part-time to pay his way. I also recommend he gets a full-time job now and saves up a nest egg for when he's in school while he's waiting for fall. To give you some background: two family members went to 1st tiers and one is employed in a mid-sized firm. The other makes $40K. One relative went to a 2nd tier and makes about $50K. These people all had 160+ LSATs, 3.5+ GPAs from nationally known undergrad institutions, and were in at least the top 50% at law school (the one at midlaw was in top 10%). Midlaw relative is the only one without debt (he worked evenings while in school and saved for 2 years before). Law schools are getting rich from people like your relative. It is not too late to avoid this GIANT mistake, do everything you can to convince him not to go. |
Anonymous
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He's definitely not getting in anywhere in the top tier, even mid-range schools are likely well out of his reach (friends of mine with strong GPAs and so-so LSATs went to mid-range). For the top, even if he has a very compelling story, he's still not getting in.
He shouldn't go to law school. He's going to end up with a ton of debt and zero prospects coming from anywhere that's not top tier, or that's not a strong school, plus being at the top of the class. |
Anonymous
| Hate to break it to you OP, but your family member is in for a pretty disappointing application season. I would be concerned about the readiness of any law school applicant who requires help with the essays, let alone your relative who has so many other strikes against. They are not ready for the rigors of law school and likely won't get accepted to any, and certainly not a prestigious one. You are right to be concerned for your relative, but I think the application process will crush their dreams well before you need to. If they are hell bent on law school, I hope they are applying to Cooley as a safety. |
Anonymous
Sadly, many TTTs will accept this type of applicant, charge them $100K for the privilege, and crap them out into the workforce with no prospects. OP, you need to have that heart-to-heart NOW and not wait until the TTTs entice him with their lies as to employment % for their graduates. |
Anonymous
| Which law schools are de rigueur for entry into biglaw? Just curious. |
Anonymous
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OP here, thanks for the quick responses. When I say it's not a traditional schol, it's not a degree mill, but it's not a regular college or university that people go to after high school. (I prefer not to name the school itself)
I guess I've known he doesn't stand a chance at the top schools, so I am willing to humor him and let him spend a few hundred dollars on applications. My big fear is that there's some community college law school out there that will accept him and take his money since he wants to go so badly. He actually won't go to a school that's not ABA approved, so I'm hoping there are no schools out there like this that exist. |
Anonymous
1st or 2nd tier is usually the limit (and with 2nd tier, it's harder). |
Anonymous
NO NO NO! Like I said, third-tier turds are ABA accredited, and they will leave him in debt and without a job. He will get into a law school, but it will be a crappy one that lies about employment rates and leaves him very badly off. Just nip this in the bud. |
Anonymous
| He should only apply to first or second tier schools. Yeah, it sounds like he won't get in, but any school ranked lower than that is just a waste of money. |
Anonymous
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I would think he won't get in to law school. Even though law schools and other grad programs want to get people in and pump people through, it reflects poorly on them if they let in people who aren't up for the challenge of the program - many schools have to report on drop out rates, etc. and if they accept people with low scores that will bring down their average and their prestige. In a way, there are protections built in.
Just in case, it wouldn't hurt to send him that recent WaPo article, or even better, if you know anyone in the field who could give him a straight talk about who is being hired, rampant layoffs, etc. |
Anonymous
This, and all the previous posts. If he only applies to top schools, he probably won't get in - and that may be the luckiest thing that happens to him. I hesitate to say this (I can feel the flames now) but if he has low LAST scores and grades, he probably won't do too well in law school anyway. Third tier (or, to a lesser extent, first and second tiers) + bad grades = no job and lots of debt. Not good. As a PP suggested, the best thing you can do for him is convince him (or try to, anyway) to be realistic, and to push an evening program that he pays for out of pocket. It'll take longer, but not having debt is of the utmost importance if he's not going to be pulling in six figures when he graduates (and he won't). |