Anonymous
05/05/2025 13:44
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Isn't there a class action against the false advertising of "need blind"?
Most people don't begrudge that colleges take ability to pay into account; rather it's the holier than thou attitude of the supposed "need blind" colleges that rubs people raw.
Most people don't begrudge that colleges take ability to pay into account; rather it's the holier than thou attitude of the supposed "need blind" colleges that rubs people raw.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 13:22
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I agree with OP too. I had assumed the best in the system until I saw this article in the NYT Thursday (Sorry, it's paywalled, but one of the key underlying files it links to is not paywalled)
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/01/business/college-tuition-price-consultants.html
Underlying file by "enrollment" consultancy: https://pages.eab.com/rs/732-GKV-655/images/EMS-FAO-StrategicUseofGrantAid-WP.pdf
This shows that there is a lot of manipulation AT LEAST after admissions offers are made, to increase yield. I consider it dishonest for universities to make it appear that a student is getting "merit aid" when it's really a form of discount to get them to enroll (as the article/linked file illustrate), but it's not really even a discount because the published cost of attendance is inflated. (e.g., cost of attendance is $70k/yr, student is offered $20k/yr in merit aid, yet net cost of attendance is $30k/yr.).
It would not surprise me if this kind of algorithm-based analysis is happening for admissions as well (after all, yield is driven not only by accepted admissions offers but also by the admitted applications.)
Ihis blog by an admissions counseling firm also argues that Ivies' "need blind" thing is a myth. (it points out to the recent lawsuit settlement). https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/college-admissions/need-blind-admission-farce/
Some old threads here talk about this a lot - the info they ask for is intentional.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/30/1221854.page#28126024
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/105/1217721.page#28111566
There's a podcast that discusses need-blind and what a farce it is, too. Also, there is a predilection towards highly educated and highly compensated parents, so the better the parents' education (T25 schools and grad) and professions, the better the outcomes for the applicants.
Thanks for this (This is PP to whom you responded). Wish I'd seen these (and wish the NYT article) before my kid went through the process this year.
Applied and was accepted with "merit aid" to an OOS public...coincidentally receiving the same "scholarship" type as a family member received a couple of years earlier (who was also OOS but not strong academically). And ~2 marketing emails per week to parents after the admissions notification. I'm so turned off by that university now that I will tell my friends with younger students to steer clear and wish I had dissuaded my kid from spending the time and $ on the application.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 10:15
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:There are a gazillion people who apply for aid and turn out to not be qualified. They aren't dinged by a box being checked or not checked. We are this family and my kid had great admissions results.
Even if need blind is not "need blind" it's not as simple as admissions writing off 75% of their applicant pool because they checked a box.
Also many full-pay families who have saved but still need to cash flow part of the COA $90k/yr might apply for institutional financial aid at the time of application. Some schools will not offer financial aid in subsequent years, even if there is a job loss or a significant change in the family's financial situation.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 09:55
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:I agree with OP too. I had assumed the best in the system until I saw this article in the NYT Thursday (Sorry, it's paywalled, but one of the key underlying files it links to is not paywalled)
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/01/business/college-tuition-price-consultants.html
Underlying file by "enrollment" consultancy: https://pages.eab.com/rs/732-GKV-655/images/EMS-FAO-StrategicUseofGrantAid-WP.pdf
This shows that there is a lot of manipulation AT LEAST after admissions offers are made, to increase yield. I consider it dishonest for universities to make it appear that a student is getting "merit aid" when it's really a form of discount to get them to enroll (as the article/linked file illustrate), but it's not really even a discount because the published cost of attendance is inflated. (e.g., cost of attendance is $70k/yr, student is offered $20k/yr in merit aid, yet net cost of attendance is $30k/yr.).
It would not surprise me if this kind of algorithm-based analysis is happening for admissions as well (after all, yield is driven not only by accepted admissions offers but also by the admitted applications.)
Ihis blog by an admissions counseling firm also argues that Ivies' "need blind" thing is a myth. (it points out to the recent lawsuit settlement). https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/college-admissions/need-blind-admission-farce/
Some old threads here talk about this a lot - the info they ask for is intentional.
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/30/1221854.page#28126024
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/105/1217721.page#28111566
There's a podcast that discusses need-blind and what a farce it is, too. Also, there is a predilection towards highly educated and highly compensated parents, so the better the parents' education (T25 schools and grad) and professions, the better the outcomes for the applicants.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 09:55
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
PP here...should have said "actual cost of attendance $30k per year" , not net cost. It's obvious how much the differential is when the university is a state university with different prices for in vs out of state. (do see the linked file)... But notice that so many colleges (including private ones) offer "Presidential scholarships" that applicants don't have to do a separate application for, and the criteria are really vague.
Students/parents think, "what an honor...I'm really valued! and getting a good deal since they're reducing my costs by X%". Yet in reality, the colleges are saying, how much can we get this student to pay? let's start off with a high number and dangle lower prices with "merit aid."....
Students/parents think, "what an honor...I'm really valued! and getting a good deal since they're reducing my costs by X%". Yet in reality, the colleges are saying, how much can we get this student to pay? let's start off with a high number and dangle lower prices with "merit aid."....
Anonymous
05/05/2025 09:51
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
I agree with OP too. I had assumed the best in the system until I saw this article in the NYT Thursday (Sorry, it's paywalled, but one of the key underlying files it links to is not paywalled)
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/01/business/college-tuition-price-consultants.html
Underlying file by "enrollment" consultancy: https://pages.eab.com/rs/732-GKV-655/images/EMS-FAO-StrategicUseofGrantAid-WP.pdf
This shows that there is a lot of manipulation AT LEAST after admissions offers are made, to increase yield. I consider it dishonest for universities to make it appear that a student is getting "merit aid" when it's really a form of discount to get them to enroll (as the article/linked file illustrate), but it's not really even a discount because the published cost of attendance is inflated. (e.g., cost of attendance is $70k/yr, student is offered $20k/yr in merit aid, yet net cost of attendance is $30k/yr.).
It would not surprise me if this kind of algorithm-based analysis is happening for admissions as well (after all, yield is driven not only by accepted admissions offers but also by the admitted applications.)
Ihis blog by an admissions counseling firm also argues that Ivies' "need blind" thing is a myth. (it points out to the recent lawsuit settlement). https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/college-admissions/need-blind-admission-farce/
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/01/business/college-tuition-price-consultants.html
Underlying file by "enrollment" consultancy: https://pages.eab.com/rs/732-GKV-655/images/EMS-FAO-StrategicUseofGrantAid-WP.pdf
This shows that there is a lot of manipulation AT LEAST after admissions offers are made, to increase yield. I consider it dishonest for universities to make it appear that a student is getting "merit aid" when it's really a form of discount to get them to enroll (as the article/linked file illustrate), but it's not really even a discount because the published cost of attendance is inflated. (e.g., cost of attendance is $70k/yr, student is offered $20k/yr in merit aid, yet net cost of attendance is $30k/yr.).
It would not surprise me if this kind of algorithm-based analysis is happening for admissions as well (after all, yield is driven not only by accepted admissions offers but also by the admitted applications.)
Ihis blog by an admissions counseling firm also argues that Ivies' "need blind" thing is a myth. (it points out to the recent lawsuit settlement). https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/college-admissions/need-blind-admission-farce/
Anonymous
05/05/2025 09:09
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
For heaven's sakes, they know the occupation of the parents, the average income of your neighbors, your neighbor's education status, their reliance on gov't benefits, etc.all normed to the state average.
In short, the AO's know who are likely to need FA without any boxes being checked.
I'm just shocked that you're shocked that colleges have workarounds to their lofty ideals.
In short, the AO's know who are likely to need FA without any boxes being checked.
I'm just shocked that you're shocked that colleges have workarounds to their lofty ideals.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 08:28
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
I agree with OP and it's important for applicants to understand info that admission officers see. They know your school, zip code and hs school 'profile'. The common app also explicitly asks about patents' jobs and job titles and university names and degrees parents hold. They even ask where siblings attend. I was really surprised about those intrusive questions! During the 'holistic' process, everything is fair game when assessing candidates. Financial aid is a key variable of enrollment management and a way to help them fill certain institutional priorities. . Also, most 'need blind' schools are not need blind for the waitlist. Just good to be aware of how these "non profit" business entities operate.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 08:28
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
There are a gazillion people who apply for aid and turn out to not be qualified. They aren't dinged by a box being checked or not checked. We are this family and my kid had great admissions results.
Even if need blind is not "need blind" it's not as simple as admissions writing off 75% of their applicant pool because they checked a box.
Even if need blind is not "need blind" it's not as simple as admissions writing off 75% of their applicant pool because they checked a box.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 07:53
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:They are businesses- they don’t need to admit people they don’t want to or can’t afford to admit.
Nice try! If they are a business why aren’t their property and endowment growth taxed?
Anonymous
05/05/2025 07:42
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:They can see it. They just don’t use it.
We are supposed to give them credit that they are honorable.
But they are not trusting themselves in regard to the race box?
Well they are legally prohibited from using the race box. So, it’s different.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 07:23
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:They can see it. They just don’t use it.
We are supposed to give them credit that they are honorable.
But they are not trusting themselves in regard to the race box?
Anonymous
05/05/2025 07:05
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:OP, you are confused. They don’t “shade out” the information. This is all digital. The colleges chose what information to import from the common app and the readers view that information on their school’s application software (I think most schools use Landscape). So they do not even import the information about race or financial aid (if need blind) into the application file. It isn’t even there.
Landscape is just a college board product, not a records system.
You’re thinking of Slate.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 07:04
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
You think people who work in education, where people are notoriously underpaid, secretly want to give a break to rich people?
You’re hilarious.
You’re hilarious.
Anonymous
05/05/2025 07:02
Subject: Need Blind Is A Farce
Anonymous wrote:Colleges are a business, OP. They need tuition. Are you just annoyed that you didn’t save enough to be full pay?
OP is annoyed that they are lying by saying they are need-blind when they are not need-blind.