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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Geez pp, get a life. Sadly I know a bunch of families who have suffered tragic losses. And I couldn't imagine being able to carry on like some of them have. But the religious ones really seem to pick up the pieces. And they aren't merely stoic....they publicly acknowledge[b] their kids are in a better place, etc[/b]. Someone without faith can't do that. Scientific? No. But I've seen it, so I'm commenting on it here.[/quote]

Not the PP you're replying to, but I don't believe in the 'better place'. I think those kids are just dead.[/quote]

So there are no consequences to the perpetrators of child massacres?  There is no hope of eternal justice?[/quote]

Nope. Not if they dead. There is no eternal justice.

The only justice is what we create on earth. [/quote]

So imagine there is a very smart and charismatic man, and he decides that he wants to elevate the human race to a new level.  This requires annihilating humans who do not meet his standards.  So he gathers like-minded people around him and begins to systematically eliminate those he deems unfit to live, as well as anyone who stands in his way.

Let's say that he succeeds.  The day comes that only his favorite human beings remain.  Everyone else was killed--usually slowly, agonizingly, women and children, wives in front of husbands, children in front of parents.  Along the way, he performed medical experiments on them and used their slave labor to live like a king.

Under your worldview, he did not "get away with" anything.  He just lived his human life as he saw fit.  Sure, that resulted in the suffering of millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, even billions of other people.  But there is no right and wrong about it.  Because there is only this life, here, on earth.

Perhaps it is very important for you to believe there is no eternal justice, because it is not something you want to face.  The problem with your belief is that there is no justice at all, anywhere.

Say that the shooter had lived, had been arrested, had been brought to court.  So what?  There is nothing he could ever experience to come close to justice for his crimes.  Ever.

There is no justice in this world.  There are not even crude approximations.  There is only injustice, everywhere, all around us.

Without eternity, without eternal justice, there is nothing at all.  Just dust to dust.  Sandy Hook's massacre had the same significance as a sandstorm.

And if Hitler had been successful, he would have been a very effective human being, who actualized his will while the atoms assembled into his body had their moment.  And that's it.

In fact, under your worldview, the MORE violence and death, the better for all concerned!  Don't want people left behind to mourn?  Kill the whole family, the whole town, the whole country, all of humanity.  So what?  It's ultimately the same as stepping on ants.  And at least the mass murderer enjoys himself before his inconsequential candle goes out.

[/quote]

Hi - this is a very common logical fallacy. This is the "appeal to consequences" fallacy - basically, it means that you don't like the consequences if your worldview isn't correct, so therefore your worldview isn't correct. You can read more about that fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

It's also a complete misunderstanding of what many atheists believe. It kind of sickens me that no matter how much we atheists talk and try to explain our beliefs, some particularly stubborn religious people just persist in thinking that we like violence, or that we think violence doesn't matter. In fact it matters a lot. It's the most important thing. Many of us who don't believe in an afterlife or eternal justice think that what happens here on Earth during this very lifetime is EVERYTHING, and is therefore full of consequence. Not because we'll be punished for it later in eternity, but because this is the only world and the only life, and so it should be a good one where people don't do horrible, unspeakably evil things to each other.

I treat my husband well because I love him in this life. I am kind and loving with my family, my pets, other people because I love them in this life. Not because I think I'll be punished later if I don't do it right this time around. Because I think this time is the only time, and I'd like it to be good.

Yes, that leaves open the possibility that other people - evil people, or people who simply do things that I disapprove of - are going to also be out there living their lives. And I don't get some reward in the end for having lived what I think is a good and ethical life, and they don't get some punishment at the end for living what I think is an evil or bad life.

I understand your discomfort with the sense that someone who kills 27 people and then kills himself isn't going to suffer more than he's already suffered. I'd rather he go to jail, after being thoroughly examined so that people can try to understand why this happened. But just because I wish it were so doesn't mean it's going to happen. Just because I hate the idea of what happens if he just gets away with it - if you can consider suicide in this manner getting away with anything, which it's a little hard to get my mind around - doesn't mean that this other eternal courtroom in the sky exists.

I understand, too, that you don't like the idea that after you've lived a good life you aren't going to be rewarded in the end. That you're going to end up the same way as this horrible person who killed all these children and teachers. I don't like that either. It doesn't make it less true.

Or maybe it's not, and because I don't share your cultural and religious traditions I will be punished in the same way as this evil kid. I really don't like those consequences, either. Does me not liking the consequences - finding them utterly unfathomable - make them less true in your mind?
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