Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The only meaning in the world is the meaning that we create. The only legacy we have is how people remember us.

Hitler's meaning was ugly and caused great suffering. Hitler's legacy was one of horror and ugliness and tragedy.

Why would any sane atheist chose that?

And there is no justice, in your terms. Only sadness and grief in the fact of someone's monsterous behavior. If we want justice in the world, we should work for it. If we want to avoid this kind of sadness and grief, we have to reach the broken and heal them before they cause such terrible harm.

You live in a terrible world if that is what you believe about humans. I believe that most humans are good, compassionate people. The goodness that they ascribe to their belief in God comes from inside them. Most will act with love and compassion.

If there is no eternal justice, that is only your opinion. And your opinion does not count, if you are on the wrong side of the concentration camp fence.

If there is eternal justice, it does not matter what anyone's opinion is, because the truth remains the same.

To even have a sense of "monstrous behavior" is to appeal to a higher authority than any human being. Otherwise, what you consider monstrous is what someone else considers rational or efficient, and whoever is more powerful is "right."

Yes, that's right - and that is why it's important to be ever-vigilant against tyrants and fanatics. So that in THIS life we don't end up on the wrong side of the concentration camp.

Blaming the victim?

Anonymous wrote:I wish there were an edit function:


Hi - this is a very common logical fallacy. This is the "appeal to consequences" fallacy - basically, it means that you don't like the consequences if your worldview isn't correct, so therefore your worldview isn't correct. You can read more about that fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

Obviously, I meant that the common fallacy is that you don't like the consequences if your worldview isn't correct, so therefore your worldview is correct.

The fallacy only applies if that is all there is to my position. Also, there is a distinction between not "liking" the consequences and the consequences being impossible.

You cannot prove there is not eternal justice any more than I can prove there is eternal justice, because neither of us have an eternal perspective here in this world.

So your faith is as strong, or perhaps stronger, than mine.

But I rely on common sense and logic and revelation to support my faith. And since the concept of justice does not exist in reality, because there is never, and can never be, justice in this world, one must wonder from Whom the concept arises. Why have an idea of fairness when there is never, has never been, and will never be, fairness here?

Anonymous wrote:

The only meaning in the world is the meaning that we create. The only legacy we have is how people remember us.

Hitler's meaning was ugly and caused great suffering. Hitler's legacy was one of horror and ugliness and tragedy.

Why would any sane atheist chose that?

And there is no justice, in your terms. Only sadness and grief in the fact of someone's monsterous behavior. If we want justice in the world, we should work for it. If we want to avoid this kind of sadness and grief, we have to reach the broken and heal them before they cause such terrible harm.

You live in a terrible world if that is what you believe about humans. I believe that most humans are good, compassionate people. The goodness that they ascribe to their belief in God comes from inside them. Most will act with love and compassion.

If there is no eternal justice, that is only your opinion. And your opinion does not count, if you are on the wrong side of the concentration camp fence.

If there is eternal justice, it does not matter what anyone's opinion is, because the truth remains the same.

To even have a sense of "monstrous behavior" is to appeal to a higher authority than any human being. Otherwise, what you consider monstrous is what someone else considers rational or efficient, and whoever is more powerful is "right."

Yes, that's right - and that is why it's important to be ever-vigilant against tyrants and fanatics. So that in THIS life we don't end up on the wrong side of the concentration camp.

The only meaning in the world is the meaning that we create. The only legacy we have is how people remember us.

Hitler's meaning was ugly and caused great suffering. Hitler's legacy was one of horror and ugliness and tragedy.

Why would any sane atheist chose that?

And there is no justice, in your terms. Only sadness and grief in the fact of someone's monsterous behavior. If we want justice in the world, we should work for it. If we want to avoid this kind of sadness and grief, we have to reach the broken and heal them before they cause such terrible harm.

You live in a terrible world if that is what you believe about humans. I believe that most humans are good, compassionate people. The goodness that they ascribe to their belief in God comes from inside them. Most will act with love and compassion.

If there is no eternal justice, that is only your opinion. And your opinion does not count, if you are on the wrong side of the concentration camp fence.

If there is eternal justice, it does not matter what anyone's opinion is, because the truth remains the same.

To even have a sense of "monstrous behavior" is to appeal to a higher authority than any human being. Otherwise, what you consider monstrous is what someone else considers rational or efficient, and whoever is more powerful is "right."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez pp, get a life. Sadly I know a bunch of families who have suffered tragic losses. And I couldn't imagine being able to carry on like some of them have. But the religious ones really seem to pick up the pieces. And they aren't merely stoic....they publicly acknowledge their kids are in a better place, etc. Someone without faith can't do that. Scientific? No. But I've seen it, so I'm commenting on it here.

Not the PP you're replying to, but I don't believe in the 'better place'. I think those kids are just dead.

So there are no consequences to the perpetrators of child massacres? There is no hope of eternal justice?

Nope. Not if they dead. There is no eternal justice.

The only justice is what we create on earth.

So imagine there is a very smart and charismatic man, and he decides that he wants to elevate the human race to a new level. This requires annihilating humans who do not meet his standards. So he gathers like-minded people around him and begins to systematically eliminate those he deems unfit to live, as well as anyone who stands in his way.

Let's say that he succeeds. The day comes that only his favorite human beings remain. Everyone else was killed--usually slowly, agonizingly, women and children, wives in front of husbands, children in front of parents. Along the way, he performed medical experiments on them and used their slave labor to live like a king.

Under your worldview, he did not "get away with" anything. He just lived his human life as he saw fit. Sure, that resulted in the suffering of millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, even billions of other people. But there is no right and wrong about it. Because there is only this life, here, on earth.

Perhaps it is very important for you to believe there is no eternal justice, because it is not something you want to face. The problem with your belief is that there is no justice at all, anywhere.

Say that the shooter had lived, had been arrested, had been brought to court. So what? There is nothing he could ever experience to come close to justice for his crimes. Ever.

There is no justice in this world. There are not even crude approximations. There is only injustice, everywhere, all around us.

Without eternity, without eternal justice, there is nothing at all. Just dust to dust. Sandy Hook's massacre had the same significance as a sandstorm.

And if Hitler had been successful, he would have been a very effective human being, who actualized his will while the atoms assembled into his body had their moment. And that's it.

In fact, under your worldview, the MORE violence and death, the better for all concerned! Don't want people left behind to mourn? Kill the whole family, the whole town, the whole country, all of humanity. So what? It's ultimately the same as stepping on ants. And at least the mass murderer enjoys himself before his inconsequential candle goes out.

The only meaning in the world is the meaning that we create. The only legacy we have is how people remember us.

Hitler's meaning was ugly and caused great suffering. Hitler's legacy was one of horror and ugliness and tragedy.

Why would any sane atheist chose that?

And there is no justice, in your terms. Only sadness and grief in the fact of someone's monsterous behavior. If we want justice in the world, we should work for it. If we want to avoid this kind of sadness and grief, we have to reach the broken and heal them before they cause such terrible harm.

You live in a terrible world if that is what you believe about humans. I believe that most humans are good, compassionate people. The goodness that they ascribe to their belief in God comes from inside them. Most will act with love and compassion.

If there is a God, God would not look at death as the same tragedy that we do. It is simply passing from this life on to an eternal life with Him. God would weep for our pain and the suffering of his children. But the children themselves would not be safe and happy with God.

I wish there were an edit function:


Hi - this is a very common logical fallacy. This is the "appeal to consequences" fallacy - basically, it means that you don't like the consequences if your worldview isn't correct, so therefore your worldview isn't correct. You can read more about that fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

Obviously, I meant that the common fallacy is that you don't like the consequences if your worldview isn't correct, so therefore your worldview is correct.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez pp, get a life. Sadly I know a bunch of families who have suffered tragic losses. And I couldn't imagine being able to carry on like some of them have. But the religious ones really seem to pick up the pieces. And they aren't merely stoic....they publicly acknowledge their kids are in a better place, etc. Someone without faith can't do that. Scientific? No. But I've seen it, so I'm commenting on it here.

Not the PP you're replying to, but I don't believe in the 'better place'. I think those kids are just dead.

So there are no consequences to the perpetrators of child massacres? There is no hope of eternal justice?

Nope. Not if they dead. There is no eternal justice.

The only justice is what we create on earth.

So imagine there is a very smart and charismatic man, and he decides that he wants to elevate the human race to a new level. This requires annihilating humans who do not meet his standards. So he gathers like-minded people around him and begins to systematically eliminate those he deems unfit to live, as well as anyone who stands in his way.

Let's say that he succeeds. The day comes that only his favorite human beings remain. Everyone else was killed--usually slowly, agonizingly, women and children, wives in front of husbands, children in front of parents. Along the way, he performed medical experiments on them and used their slave labor to live like a king.

Under your worldview, he did not "get away with" anything. He just lived his human life as he saw fit. Sure, that resulted in the suffering of millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, even billions of other people. But there is no right and wrong about it. Because there is only this life, here, on earth.

Perhaps it is very important for you to believe there is no eternal justice, because it is not something you want to face. The problem with your belief is that there is no justice at all, anywhere.

Say that the shooter had lived, had been arrested, had been brought to court. So what? There is nothing he could ever experience to come close to justice for his crimes. Ever.

There is no justice in this world. There are not even crude approximations. There is only injustice, everywhere, all around us.

Without eternity, without eternal justice, there is nothing at all. Just dust to dust. Sandy Hook's massacre had the same significance as a sandstorm.

And if Hitler had been successful, he would have been a very effective human being, who actualized his will while the atoms assembled into his body had their moment. And that's it.

In fact, under your worldview, the MORE violence and death, the better for all concerned! Don't want people left behind to mourn? Kill the whole family, the whole town, the whole country, all of humanity. So what? It's ultimately the same as stepping on ants. And at least the mass murderer enjoys himself before his inconsequential candle goes out.

Hi - this is a very common logical fallacy. This is the "appeal to consequences" fallacy - basically, it means that you don't like the consequences if your worldview isn't correct, so therefore your worldview isn't correct. You can read more about that fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences

It's also a complete misunderstanding of what many atheists believe. It kind of sickens me that no matter how much we atheists talk and try to explain our beliefs, some particularly stubborn religious people just persist in thinking that we like violence, or that we think violence doesn't matter. In fact it matters a lot. It's the most important thing. Many of us who don't believe in an afterlife or eternal justice think that what happens here on Earth during this very lifetime is EVERYTHING, and is therefore full of consequence. Not because we'll be punished for it later in eternity, but because this is the only world and the only life, and so it should be a good one where people don't do horrible, unspeakably evil things to each other.

I treat my husband well because I love him in this life. I am kind and loving with my family, my pets, other people because I love them in this life. Not because I think I'll be punished later if I don't do it right this time around. Because I think this time is the only time, and I'd like it to be good.

Yes, that leaves open the possibility that other people - evil people, or people who simply do things that I disapprove of - are going to also be out there living their lives. And I don't get some reward in the end for having lived what I think is a good and ethical life, and they don't get some punishment at the end for living what I think is an evil or bad life.

I understand your discomfort with the sense that someone who kills 27 people and then kills himself isn't going to suffer more than he's already suffered. I'd rather he go to jail, after being thoroughly examined so that people can try to understand why this happened. But just because I wish it were so doesn't mean it's going to happen. Just because I hate the idea of what happens if he just gets away with it - if you can consider suicide in this manner getting away with anything, which it's a little hard to get my mind around - doesn't mean that this other eternal courtroom in the sky exists.

I understand, too, that you don't like the idea that after you've lived a good life you aren't going to be rewarded in the end. That you're going to end up the same way as this horrible person who killed all these children and teachers. I don't like that either. It doesn't make it less true.

Or maybe it's not, and because I don't share your cultural and religious traditions I will be punished in the same way as this evil kid. I really don't like those consequences, either. Does me not liking the consequences - finding them utterly unfathomable - make them less true in your mind?

Where was God on Friday? That's what I want to know. On vacation? All this talk of God's mercy and God's love - where was He when innocent babies were being slaughtered

Crying. That's truly what I believe. His heart is broken. These were His children first.

God gave man free will. With that gift comes the power to choose evil. God never promised us an easy life. There is pain, sorrow, and hurt all around us. God did promise to remain with us. He demonstrated that perfect love when His own Son was brutally murdered. Why doesn't he step in and stop horrible things from happening? I'm not sure. But I think we are here on earth to learn to love each other. We are supposed to figure this stuff out by our own free will, not because He forces us to behave a certain way. Unfortunately, most people (myself included) haven't even come close to figuring it out.

"God" (in pretty much every religion) said- Love each other. That's the single most important thing we need to learn. When we figure that out, the world will heal.

Anonymous wrote:If I were you, OP, I'd be more upset at the Westboro "church" crowd who apparently is going to protest at the funerals. Those are the people who REALLY damage religion.

Or are they just misunderstood, God-fearing believers?

No. Practicing Catholic here, IMO they are sick, sick, sick and they have ZERO understanding of the Gospels. Jesus weeps, trust me. I've no idea what he is waiting for.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez pp, get a life. Sadly I know a bunch of families who have suffered tragic losses. And I couldn't imagine being able to carry on like some of them have. But the religious ones really seem to pick up the pieces. And they aren't merely stoic....they publicly acknowledge their kids are in a better place, etc. Someone without faith can't do that. Scientific? No. But I've seen it, so I'm commenting on it here.

Not the PP you're replying to, but I don't believe in the 'better place'. I think those kids are just dead.

So there are no consequences to the perpetrators of child massacres? There is no hope of eternal justice?

Nope. Not if they dead. There is no eternal justice.

The only justice is what we create on earth.

So imagine there is a very smart and charismatic man, and he decides that he wants to elevate the human race to a new level. This requires annihilating humans who do not meet his standards. So he gathers like-minded people around him and begins to systematically eliminate those he deems unfit to live, as well as anyone who stands in his way.

Let's say that he succeeds. The day comes that only his favorite human beings remain. Everyone else was killed--usually slowly, agonizingly, women and children, wives in front of husbands, children in front of parents. Along the way, he performed medical experiments on them and used their slave labor to live like a king.

Under your worldview, he did not "get away with" anything. He just lived his human life as he saw fit. Sure, that resulted in the suffering of millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions, even billions of other people. But there is no right and wrong about it. Because there is only this life, here, on earth.

Perhaps it is very important for you to believe there is no eternal justice, because it is not something you want to face. The problem with your belief is that there is no justice at all, anywhere.

Say that the shooter had lived, had been arrested, had been brought to court. So what? There is nothing he could ever experience to come close to justice for his crimes. Ever.

There is no justice in this world. There are not even crude approximations. There is only injustice, everywhere, all around us.

Without eternity, without eternal justice, there is nothing at all. Just dust to dust. Sandy Hook's massacre had the same significance as a sandstorm.

And if Hitler had been successful, he would have been a very effective human being, who actualized his will while the atoms assembled into his body had their moment. And that's it.

In fact, under your worldview, the MORE violence and death, the better for all concerned! Don't want people left behind to mourn? Kill the whole family, the whole town, the whole country, all of humanity. So what? It's ultimately the same as stepping on ants. And at least the mass murderer enjoys himself before his inconsequential candle goes out.

If I were you, OP, I'd be more upset at the Westboro "church" crowd who apparently is going to protest at the funerals. Those are the people who REALLY damage religion.

Or are they just misunderstood, God-fearing believers?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez pp, get a life. Sadly I know a bunch of families who have suffered tragic losses. And I couldn't imagine being able to carry on like some of them have. But the religious ones really seem to pick up the pieces. And they aren't merely stoic....they publicly acknowledge their kids are in a better place, etc. Someone without faith can't do that. Scientific? No. But I've seen it, so I'm commenting on it here.

Not the PP you're replying to, but I don't believe in the 'better place'. I think those kids are just dead.

So there are no consequences to the perpetrators of child massacres? There is no hope of eternal justice?

Nope. Not if they dead. There is no eternal justice.

The only justice is what we create on earth.

Anonymous wrote:The idea I have seen making the rounds among my religious friends - the suggestion that a loving God would abandon a bunch of six year olds to being shot to death because of political correctness in schools or a phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance is.... repugnant. Jaw droppingly reprehensible.

If that is your God I want no part of him.

If you have the balls to say or imply that this massacre is the fault of atheists then you deserve to be mocked, humiliated or ranted about. You started it.

Anonymous wrote:Ok, fine. But I need people to stop posting bullshit about this event being the direct result of the removal of god from schools.

This. And I am religious.