Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

And this is a perfect example of the type of generalization that has reduced my empathy for Israel greatly. It's all of a piece - we must be told over and over again that Palestinians do not really value human life, so that we won't react with horror and outrage when Israel decides to kill so many of them. Either they had it coming to them or it's what they really wanted all along, right?

This attitude and the accompanying rhetoric literally sickens me, and it very much makes me believe that Israel in its current state is a major threat to humanity that requires systemic and fundamental change.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Not true. I don't think anyone embraces violence per se, they resort to it when everything else fails:

This is a quote from Mandela during the apartheid:

On his decision to take up arms against apartheid:

“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.

Another one:

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

I think Mandela’s peace-loving qualities are oftentimes confused with him being a pacifist, which he certainly is not.Mandela did support violence where it had a clear practical purpose, and then favored property destruction over harm to people . And it is important to note that Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

Way to go, Muslima. Try to make the change that these two men into a violent struggle to justify your own actions. It was not. They made historic changes without resorting to violence, certainly not on the scale you advocate for the Palestinians.

Change without violence is possible -- but you don't want that. You embrace it.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

Not true. I don't think anyone embraces violence per se, they resort to it when everything else fails:

This is a quote from Mandela during the apartheid:

On his decision to take up arms against apartheid:

“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.

Another one:

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

I think Mandela’s peace-loving qualities are oftentimes confused with him being a pacifist, which he certainly is not.Mandela did support violence where it had a clear practical purpose, and then favored property destruction over harm to people . And it is important to note that Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

And this is a perfect example of the type of generalization that has reduced my empathy for Israel greatly. It's all of a piece - we must be told over and over again that Palestinians do not really value human life, so that we won't react with horror and outrage when Israel decides to kill so many of them. Either they had it coming to them or it's what they really wanted all along, right?

This attitude and the accompanying rhetoric literally sickens me, and it very much makes me believe that Israel in its current state is a major threat to humanity that requires systemic and fundamental change.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

So basically you glorify death. That's why Hamas uses human beings as shields.

We do not glorify death, we mourn our dead the same way you do, we hurt and pain the same way any other human does when they lose a love one. We also believe in another Life after Death, so we do not look at death or this life as the finality of it all!

Here is what you wrote on another thread. It sure sounds like glorifying death and violence.


"Are you sure about that? I don't know of any people/countries who just sat down peacefully, smiles on their faces accepting to be colonized/enslaved/occupied . That did not happen and i don't see that ever happening. History books describe in great details how those countries that you are talking about fought endlessly til one party gave up because they were not strong enough or there was outside pressure or maybe they found their morality somewhere along the way. I dont see how the Palestinians are justifying violence since they are the victims here. In any case, one thing is for sure, Palestinians will fight till Palestine is free, Palestinians do not give up . The route to justice and freedom is paved by bravery, the blood of the people who fight for those ideals, and their memories. Today, most things are manufactured in China but courage is still manufactured in Palestine, and one day Ghaza will be free~ "

You sound like a bunch of rednecks who want everyone out of "their" country who isn't just like them. That land doesn't belong to you any more than it does to the Israelis. Learn to live with others on this planet because that is the direction we are all going as a human race. There is no such thing as countries made up of only one ethnicity any more. Why should that piece of land be any different? I don't feel your pain about it belonging to you or your drama about how you will fight to the death for it. Not feeling it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight. You are insulted that someone is trying to humanize Palestinians? You actually believe that it is a lie that Palestinians could be humanized. And, this is because you don't believe Palestinians to be human?

Don't you know that the Israelis and their supporters are the same side of the coin as Joeseph Goebbles and his propaganda. The way they feel about palestinians is the way the Nazi felt about Jews. The way Hitler and his supporters dehumanized the Jews is the way Israel and it's supporters dehumanize Palestinians. You would think they of all people would get this and have empathy.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course you do. You're permitted to monopolize a thread. Typical.

Monopolize a thread? More like preach from the DcUm pulpit. And preach propaganda at that!

This is so funny. I think Anonymous is the one monopolizing the thread and spreading their own version(s) of propaganda. At least Muslimina identifies her posts.

Signed

Anonymous (I might be one or I might be ten)

I don't think all her posts are identified. Based on the strong writing similarities in posts before she identified herself, you might conclude they belong to her. Also, when someone logs off, that's not to say they don't post anonymously.

It's not a bad thing, far from it.

Just because you think something doesn't make it true. I did not post anonymously since registering, and of course I posted "Anonymously" before registering and then did say in the middle of the discussion that I was going to register.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight. You are insulted that someone is trying to humanize Palestinians? You actually believe that it is a lie that Palestinians could be humanized. And, this is because you don't believe Palestinians to be human?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

Totally agree. People who eagerly and willingly engage in war can't turn around and say how horrible war is. If you are against war, don't engage in war.

A man once said "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and urged the local population to launch an armed rebellion in order to seek independence from an unwanted occupier. That man, Patrick Henry, later became the governor of Virginia and is honored as one of America's esteemed founding fathers. To think that those lost in America's war of independence might be considered nothing but "currency in trade".

I'm not that man. In this day and age, we admire people like Nelson Mandela and Gandhi.

Both Mandela and Gandhi had many, many followers killed as a result of their liberation struggles. Both were clearly willing to sacrifice their own lives as well.

Yes but they did not embrace violence as a way to make change. They rejected it.

“I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle.” -- Statement at the opening of his defense in the Rivonia treason trial, April 20, 1964.

“A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

So basically you glorify death. That's why Hamas uses human beings as shields.

We do not glorify death, we mourn our dead the same way you do, we hurt and pain the same way any other human does when they lose a love one. We also believe in another Life after Death, so we do not look at death or this life as the finality of it all!

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

Thank you for the explanation.

I think it helps explain why those who clearly wanted to live in peace, those who were prepared to die if necessary for their country and, yes, those who have caused or provoked their own deaths all have been called martys. You are right that the term often has a negative connotation to a Western ear, and I sensed there was more to it than one could glean from various sources of propoganda.

You're welcome. Just one more clarification : Causing your own death is not considered martyrdom, for exemple, suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam and not a path to martyrdom at all...

This is such a BS exchange. If this isn't sock puppeting them no doubt the person posing the question already knew the answer.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Uhm, Oh, Ok, thanks for educating me. I must have been living under a rock

You are being manipulative. You are simply proving you are spreading propaganda and preying on the empathy of those who feel, rather than think.

Thank you! I can't believe we have to sit here being lied to. Palestinians sacrifice their own family and neighbors in their zeal to lay the guilt of the murders at the feet of others they deeply, deeply desire to murder. Then they call out to the world to witness the suffering they are inflicting upon themselves. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight. You are insulted that someone is trying to humanize Palestinians? You actually believe that it is a lie that Palestinians could be humanized. And, this is because you don't believe Palestinians to be human?

Don't you know that the Israelis and their supporters are the same side of the coin as Joeseph Goebbles and his propaganda. The way they feel about palestinians is the way the Nazi felt about Jews. The way Hitler and his supporters dehumanized the Jews is the way Israel and it's supporters dehumanize Palestinians. You would think they of all people would get this and have empathy.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From an outsider's perspective, I wonder if you could explain why Palestinians and their supporters often continue to use the word "martyrs" to refer to Gazans killed in this conflict. The pain and devastation is obvious and palpable, yet I believe the language suggests to many Americans that Hamas treats killed "martrys" as their currency in trade.

I wish for a world with fewer martyrs and more children growing up with their basic needs met.

That is just an Islamic term and really has been vilified by the West. We even call people who die in childbirth and car accidents martyrs. In Islam, we believe that certain types of deaths elevate the person to a certain level in the Hereafter, because of how painful or tragic the death is. The arabic term is "Shaheed". This has nothing to do with wanting to die, or suicide bombing, terrorism ect.

-The one who dies from a long disease is considered a martyr
-A pregnant woman who dies in pregnancy or while giving birth is considered a martyr
-Whoever is killed defending his property is a martyr.
-he who dies in defense of his own life is a martyr; he who dies in defense of his faith is a martyr; and he who dies in defense of his family is a martyr.
-The one who speaks to a tyrannical leader and commands and forbids him, then the latter kills him–he is a martyr
-Whoever is killed unjustly is considered a martyr.
ect....

E
So, whenever a Muslim dies in one of these ways, you will hear other Muslims call him/her "Martyr" and that is why you hear that in Palestine. Muslims believe that the highest and most honorable death is to die as a Martyr, that doesn't mean we walk around wanting to die or we want to die on a battlefield. To the contrary, like i said earlier even dying in a car accident is considered dying as a martyr. We just believe that the reward of the martyr is superior to any other in the after life, and we consider people who are killed in Palestine of having been killed unjustly, that is why you will hear people call them "Martyrs"

Thank you for the explanation.

I think it helps explain why those who clearly wanted to live in peace, those who were prepared to die if necessary for their country and, yes, those who have caused or provoked their own deaths all have been called martys. You are right that the term often has a negative connotation to a Western ear, and I sensed there was more to it than one could glean from various sources of propoganda.

You're welcome. Just one more clarification : Causing your own death is not considered martyrdom, for exemple, suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam and not a path to martyrdom at all...