Reply to Bill Maher explains the Middle East to Gen Z: Can anyone really dispute the facts?

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Reply to "Bill Maher explains the Middle East to Gen Z: Can anyone really dispute the facts?"

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.[/quote]

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.[/quote]

20 years ago?  Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.[/quote]

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?[/quote]

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is.  I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others.  (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).  [/quote]

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF.   They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians.  It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that. [/quote]

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

[/quote]
Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.[/quote]

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.
[/quote]

No, that's a common misconception.  The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o[/quote]
“a plausible risk of genocide”.   Seems like it.[/quote]

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000.  This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it.  It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out.  IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports.  If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number.  Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%.  Korean war was 6.67% to 10%.  Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%.  Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere.  Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.[/quote]

Your commitment to defending Israel would be commendable were it not for such a terrible cause. The Health Ministry figures you cite are out of date. While the Health Ministry gets a lot of criticism for its numbers, the ministry is really quite conservative and only counts those victims that it can identify. Those who are still buried under rubble and can't be identified are not counted. According to a recent letter in "The Lancet" that is discussed in this article, the actual number of deaths, both direct and indirect, from the conflict may be as high as 186,000:

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet

[/quote]

Odd, since that I recall that several months back, that same group previously defended the Health Ministry numbers and said were generally accurate when they were being disputed by others.  But anyhow, to arrive at that bigger number, they make a lot of guesses and estimates, for which there's not really much real evidence to support it.  [/quote]

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill?  I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too.  There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death.  I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels.  Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths.  Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide.  That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans.  In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews.  As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it.  That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it.  I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate.  Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians.  They need to end it.[/quote]

While both sides have committed horrors this is not currently a one or both side situation:

[b]Hamas had agreed to the US ceasefire plan.[/b]
The Us does not supply their weapons.

Israel blocked the US ceasefire plan.
Reports are that Israel helped fund the rise of Hamas bc of their fear of the PLO.
The US does supply Israel with weapons.

Where is our leverage? We can stop supplying Israel with weapons.

[/quote]

Do you have a citation for this and is Hamas actually credible and to be taken at its word?[/quote]

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