jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.

I've been moderating this website the same way for 20 years. Thanks for your warning but I think the site has a few more years in it. Opinions are one thing, but making completely false statements does not benefit anyone. But, if you prefer lies and misinformation, I can recommend some websites that would be better suited for you.

No, you have behaved differently on this topic.
Why don't you make a sticky letting people know what they can and cannot say? Why keep up the pretense that people can say what they want, particularly when you just said you will delete posts that say some specific things?

What do you see as the value of outright lies? I am not sure why, but in one of your earlier posts you accused me of saying things that I did not say. What is the value of that? I've left your post because I don't really care about lies about me. But in a topic like this, what is the value of someone stating things that factually are not true (e.g. that Hamas would bomb any church that it could despite one of the most ancient churches being safe under Hamas until Israel bombed it)? I am really confused as to why keeping objectively false information is important to you.

What they want you to do is allow them to use racist and bigoted tropes about my people, which has been the case for decades. That’s why Jake Tapper, and Dana Bash and Tony whatever from CBS, can allow their glaring Zionism to go unchecked and keep their jobs. What I want to know is why they so easily believed the stories about beheaded babies and mass rape, but ignore how many children have been massacred and Palestinians raped for years. They don’t care that the President of the United States lied to the American people costing a Palestinian child his life in a brutal attack and got three students shot with one paralyzed. Did we get congressional hearings for us? No, we didn’t. what we got was something pretending to include us where the Republicans took turns attacking us while the Democrats were silent The mother of the child stabbed was at one of the congressional hearings, they didn’t even acknowledge her. I can only imagine what would be done to us in this country if it were a Jewish child stabbed and three Jewish students shot.

If you don’t notice there’s a concerted effort to silence us in this country for decades, it’s because we’ve been so dehumanized by the media and government, that it seems perfectly normal to you to watch panels with no actual Arab, Muslim or Palestinian to discuss the Occupation ever. And anyone who looks to Bill Maher, there is genuinely something wrong with you. You are leaving your brain at the door thinking that idiot is right. Ask yourself why he won’t be challenged.

I have never expressed hatred towards Jewish people because I don’t hate Jewish people. On the contrary, I would rather live with Jewish people than a lot of those gulf state traitors. Zionists are the ones who project their own prejudice onto us.

Jeff, they simply want to be allowed to claim whatever garbage they believe based on their own bigotry towards Muslims and talk about being censored on the outright lie. When you constantly explain Christianity in Palestine or the Levant and they continue with the nonsense about Hamas persecuting Christians because they’re so brainwashed associating everyone with ISIS, it’s because they either refuse to accept the truth, or they have an agenda based in keeping people concerned about Christians, ignorant of reality. There were Christmas celebrations under Hamas and Hezbollah literally has Christian allies. Whatever you think of those two groups, their focus was not on eradicating people for their RELIGION. You can’t accept that Isis literally had members of their group treated by Israel. The literal founder of Hamas said it years ago his enemy was not Jews. It’s Zionism. We are the first ones who know the difference between the two. The average American prefers blind bigotry and attacking someone like Coates who saw with own eyes the roads generations of Palestinians are not allowed to walk on while someone who just showed up from America who had to declare he wasn’t Muslim, could.

jsteele wrote:Joe Biden has kind of, sort of, had enough:

So after the election Biden will "reassess" military assistance. Until then we will be supplying them with everything we've got.

If I were Biden, I would sanction Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, at minimum, as well as expanding the sanctions the U.S. recently applied to Hilltop Youth and other groups, and would tie arms sales to a demand that Israel starts treating Jewish terorrist groups in the West Bank the same way it treats Hamas and Islamic Jihad there. Would also have made the link between humanitarian assistance and military aid in October 2023, not October 2024.

Joe Biden has kind of, sort of, had enough:

So after the election Biden will "reassess" military assistance. Until then we will be supplying them with everything we've got.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

Your commitment to defending Israel would be commendable were it not for such a terrible cause. The Health Ministry figures you cite are out of date. While the Health Ministry gets a lot of criticism for its numbers, the ministry is really quite conservative and only counts those victims that it can identify. Those who are still buried under rubble and can't be identified are not counted. According to a recent letter in "The Lancet" that is discussed in this article, the actual number of deaths, both direct and indirect, from the conflict may be as high as 186,000:

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet

Odd, since that I recall that several months back, that same group previously defended the Health Ministry numbers and said were generally accurate when they were being disputed by others. But anyhow, to arrive at that bigger number, they make a lot of guesses and estimates, for which there's not really much real evidence to support it.

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill? I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too. There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death. I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels. Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths. Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide. That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans. In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews. As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it. That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it. I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate. Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians. They need to end it.

While both sides have committed horrors this is not currently a one or both side situation:

Hamas had agreed to the US ceasefire plan.
The Us does not supply their weapons.

Israel blocked the US ceasefire plan.
Reports are that Israel helped fund the rise of Hamas bc of their fear of the PLO.
The US does supply Israel with weapons.

Where is our leverage? We can stop supplying Israel with weapons.

We have to primary out Democrats. Reshape the party into an anti-war, pro-worker party.

In the meantime, elect the party more likely to listen to you. Right now, Democrats are losing support. Republicans have an edge in party identification for the first time in decades. They have a choice, they can either do what they have tried to do in the past and cater to moderates, or they can cater to progressives. What I am seeing them do is go for moderates. That calculus needs to change and that takes work to achieve. Not voting does not achieve that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Superior military technology is the only reason why Hamas and Hezbollah haven’t murdered every single Israeli.

Another justification for genocide. Is there any atrocity by Israel that you won't justify?

Wars are not genocide.

That might have sounded good when you thought of it, but it really doesn't make much sense. Israel is committing genocide regardless of whatever else it might be doing.

Israel is not committing genocide. If they were, there would not be a single Palestinian alive decades ago.

Poor logic. By your same reasoning Germany was not committing genocide against Jews because some Jews survived WWII and now there are millions of Jews.

I agree that this is poor logic, but for what it's worth, it was only in the last few years that the worldwide Jewish population exceeded the worldwide Jewish population in 1920.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Bill Maher

He couldn't explain how a tissue works.

Middle East conflict is just generational feuding among siblings (Semites). Half the Semites broke away from the Hebrews and formed their own religion (Islam) and now have forgotten why they fight each other at all.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Zionism rearing its ugly head in the ME at the turn of the 20th Century started this. Stop telling yourself this tiresome lie about Jews and Muslims fighting.
The very reason Jews went back to the ME was because they were protected from Euro Christians who massacred them whether during the Inquisition, Holocaust, etc. ARAB Jews were a part of every ME country. Wealthy, prominent, educated and in govt. Guess why they're now called "Mizrahi" Jews?

It's quite galling watching Zionist Jews get all buddy-buddy with Europe and projecting the actual antisemitism from that continent to defend massacring people who had nothing to do with what Europe and Christianity has done to Jews for a thousand years. What it shows is that Zionist Jews (who are predominantly Ashkenazi) are racist first before they are Jewish.

Most Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi now, and the Mizrahi and Sephardic political parties are among the most rabidly right-wing and religious nationalist ones there are. The entire peace movement in Israel, to the extent it still exists, is basically seen as a project of out of touch old Ashkenazi leftists. So you're wrong about who's driving today's Israeli Zionism.

You're right that Jews lived in a lot of Middle Eastern countries, but there are frequent massacres of Jews around the Middle East in the Middle Ages, albeit not as frequent as in Europe -- in Morocco in 1465, Libya in 1785, Algeria throughout the early 1800s. In the 1800s, most Jews in the Middle East were required to live in ghettos, just as they were in Europe. Obviously, the pogroms in Russia in the 1880s/the Russian civil war in the 1920s/the Holocaust in the 1940s were worse for Jews there. And none of that history excuses any of the many atrocities committed by the Israeli army in the last century and a half. But this notion that Jews in Muslim lands were welcomed as equals until the State of Israel was established is false.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher is a fool and a hack. Hard pass.

Your opinion cloaked in an ad hominem attack doesn’t move the conversation forward.

Try watching the segment and then address the facts. Otherwise nobody will take you seriously.

I probably agree with Maher on this more than with his critics, in general, but I'm not going to watch this segment because I also agree with the PP that Maher is a fool and a hack, so I guess I'll never know.

The facts leading up to today are far messier than a lot of partisans on either side want to believe; the most relevant fact going forward is that there are 7 million Israelis and about 5 million Palestinians, and neither of them are going anywhere else, and it's time for leaders in both Israel and Palestine to start making policy that can lead to coexistence in the same land without war.

Anonymous wrote:https://youtu.be/V76HS4jHoJE?si=5qQgfWo6idKSQFq0

ICYMI: Bill Maher quickly breaks down the Middle East using history and facts for the benefit of everyone—but particularly for Chappell Roan and the TikTok generation.

Sure, he cracks jokes along the way. But his bit is grounded in history and facts.

Can anyone really dispute it? I mean, can anyone dispute the facts without resorting to the lazy knee jerk “Zionist colonizers” rhetoric…which Maher easily explains is both silly and false.

Watch the clip and then let’s talk.

Is he getting paid for this advertisement?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

Your commitment to defending Israel would be commendable were it not for such a terrible cause. The Health Ministry figures you cite are out of date. While the Health Ministry gets a lot of criticism for its numbers, the ministry is really quite conservative and only counts those victims that it can identify. Those who are still buried under rubble and can't be identified are not counted. According to a recent letter in "The Lancet" that is discussed in this article, the actual number of deaths, both direct and indirect, from the conflict may be as high as 186,000:

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet

Odd, since that I recall that several months back, that same group previously defended the Health Ministry numbers and said were generally accurate when they were being disputed by others. But anyhow, to arrive at that bigger number, they make a lot of guesses and estimates, for which there's not really much real evidence to support it.

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill? I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too. There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death. I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels. Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths. Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide. That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans. In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews. As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it. That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it. I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate. Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians. They need to end it.

While both sides have committed horrors this is not currently a one or both side situation:

Hamas had agreed to the US ceasefire plan.
The Us does not supply their weapons.

Israel blocked the US ceasefire plan.
Reports are that Israel helped fund the rise of Hamas bc of their fear of the PLO.
The US does supply Israel with weapons.

Where is our leverage? We can stop supplying Israel with weapons.

Do you have a citation for this and is Hamas actually credible and to be taken at its word?

I posted it in a subsequent post, but here it is again:

Here is Hezbollah: https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/08/middleeast/hezbollah-endorses-lebanon-ceasefire-first-time-israel-war-intl/index.html

Here is Hamas: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68964108

Here is another citation about Hamas regarding their acceptance of the UN approved ceasefire:'

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hamas-accepts-un-ceasefire-resolution-ready-negotiate-over-details-official-says-2024-06-11/

As for taking people at their word, Biden repeatedly said that Israel had accepted the ceasefire proposal only to have Netanyahu deny it. One of them obviously can't be taken at his word, but the question is which one?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

Your commitment to defending Israel would be commendable were it not for such a terrible cause. The Health Ministry figures you cite are out of date. While the Health Ministry gets a lot of criticism for its numbers, the ministry is really quite conservative and only counts those victims that it can identify. Those who are still buried under rubble and can't be identified are not counted. According to a recent letter in "The Lancet" that is discussed in this article, the actual number of deaths, both direct and indirect, from the conflict may be as high as 186,000:

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet

Odd, since that I recall that several months back, that same group previously defended the Health Ministry numbers and said were generally accurate when they were being disputed by others. But anyhow, to arrive at that bigger number, they make a lot of guesses and estimates, for which there's not really much real evidence to support it.

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill? I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too. There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death. I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels. Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths. Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide. That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans. In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews. As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it. That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it. I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate. Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians. They need to end it.

While both sides have committed horrors this is not currently a one or both side situation:

Hamas had agreed to the US ceasefire plan.
The Us does not supply their weapons.

Israel blocked the US ceasefire plan.
Reports are that Israel helped fund the rise of Hamas bc of their fear of the PLO.
The US does supply Israel with weapons.

Where is our leverage? We can stop supplying Israel with weapons.

Do you have a citation for this and is Hamas actually credible and to be taken at its word?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

Your commitment to defending Israel would be commendable were it not for such a terrible cause. The Health Ministry figures you cite are out of date. While the Health Ministry gets a lot of criticism for its numbers, the ministry is really quite conservative and only counts those victims that it can identify. Those who are still buried under rubble and can't be identified are not counted. According to a recent letter in "The Lancet" that is discussed in this article, the actual number of deaths, both direct and indirect, from the conflict may be as high as 186,000:

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet

Odd, since that I recall that several months back, that same group previously defended the Health Ministry numbers and said were generally accurate when they were being disputed by others. But anyhow, to arrive at that bigger number, they make a lot of guesses and estimates, for which there's not really much real evidence to support it.

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill? I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too. There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death. I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels. Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths. Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide. That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans. In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews. As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it. That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it. I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate. Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians. They need to end it.

While both sides have committed horrors this is not currently a one or both side situation:

Hamas had agreed to the US ceasefire plan.
The Us does not supply their weapons.

Israel blocked the US ceasefire plan.
Reports are that Israel helped fund the rise of Hamas bc of their fear of the PLO.
The US does supply Israel with weapons.

Where is our leverage? We can stop supplying Israel with weapons.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.

I've been moderating this website the same way for 20 years. Thanks for your warning but I think the site has a few more years in it. Opinions are one thing, but making completely false statements does not benefit anyone. But, if you prefer lies and misinformation, I can recommend some websites that would be better suited for you.

No, you have behaved differently on this topic.
Why don't you make a sticky letting people know what they can and cannot say? Why keep up the pretense that people can say what they want, particularly when you just said you will delete posts that say some specific things?

What do you see as the value of outright lies? I am not sure why, but in one of your earlier posts you accused me of saying things that I did not say. What is the value of that? I've left your post because I don't really care about lies about me. But in a topic like this, what is the value of someone stating things that factually are not true (e.g. that Hamas would bomb any church that it could despite one of the most ancient churches being safe under Hamas until Israel bombed it)? I am really confused as to why keeping objectively false information is important to you.

Speaking of outright lies, your Palestinian friend just stated Israel killed its own people in the attack last Oct in air strikes

That's not a lie. That has been reported by Israeli newspapers. Israel invoked the "Hannibal Protocol" which allowed the military to kill Israelis in the process of trying to kill Hamas fighters. In addition, an order was issued to prevent hostage-taking at all costs. As a result, the Israelis blew up any car heading to the border without concern about who was in it. In many cases, they killed Israelis:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000

This reports on that article but is not pay-walled:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-hannibal-protocol-during-oct-7-fighting-report/

"The Haaretz daily newspaper reported on Sunday that it had obtained documents and collected testimonies from troops who partook in the fighting on October 7. The data, Haaretz said, collectively pointed toward the use of the Hannibal Protocol, a military order officially repealed in 2016 that granted troops broad permission to do whatever necessary to prevent the kidnapping of a fellow soldier, including potentially endangering their life."
...

"The response from command was an order for “Hannibal at Erez,” Haaretz alleged, and an instruction to dispatch an attack drone. Half an hour later, a second abduction was reported and the same order was said to have been issued."
...

"In November 2023, a separate Haaretz report alleged that a small number of civilians may have been injured by fire from a military chopper as they were fleeing the Supernova music festival, held in the fields of Kibbutz Re’im."
...

"According to the investigation, amid battles that took place in southern Israel on October 7, an IAF helicopter opened fire on a car with several terrorists in it. It was later revealed, based on eyewitnesses, videos from the helicopter, and surveillance camera footage, that the vehicle also had Israeli hostages in it."
...

"Toward the evening, as the IDF fought to regain control of the Gaza border communities, Brig. Gen. Barak Hiram, the commander of the IDF’s 99th Division, ordered a tank to fire on a home in Kibbutz Be’eri, where Hamas terrorists were holding 14 Israelis hostage. The tank fired two shells toward the house. Of the 14 who had been held hostage, 13 were killed in the intense firefight between Israeli troops and the Hamas terrorists."

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill? I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too. There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death. I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels. Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths. Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide. That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans. In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews. As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it. That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it. I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate. Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians. They need to end it.

While settlers are stealing their land. Great advice.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.

I've been moderating this website the same way for 20 years. Thanks for your warning but I think the site has a few more years in it. Opinions are one thing, but making completely false statements does not benefit anyone. But, if you prefer lies and misinformation, I can recommend some websites that would be better suited for you.

No, you have behaved differently on this topic.
Why don't you make a sticky letting people know what they can and cannot say? Why keep up the pretense that people can say what they want, particularly when you just said you will delete posts that say some specific things?

What do you see as the value of outright lies? I am not sure why, but in one of your earlier posts you accused me of saying things that I did not say. What is the value of that? I've left your post because I don't really care about lies about me. But in a topic like this, what is the value of someone stating things that factually are not true (e.g. that Hamas would bomb any church that it could despite one of the most ancient churches being safe under Hamas until Israel bombed it)? I am really confused as to why keeping objectively false information is important to you.

Speaking of outright lies, your Palestinian friend just stated Israel killed its own people in the attack last Oct in air strikes

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

Your commitment to defending Israel would be commendable were it not for such a terrible cause. The Health Ministry figures you cite are out of date. While the Health Ministry gets a lot of criticism for its numbers, the ministry is really quite conservative and only counts those victims that it can identify. Those who are still buried under rubble and can't be identified are not counted. According to a recent letter in "The Lancet" that is discussed in this article, the actual number of deaths, both direct and indirect, from the conflict may be as high as 186,000:

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240711-more-than-186-000-dead-in-gaza-how-credible-are-the-estimates-published-on-the-lancet

Odd, since that I recall that several months back, that same group previously defended the Health Ministry numbers and said were generally accurate when they were being disputed by others. But anyhow, to arrive at that bigger number, they make a lot of guesses and estimates, for which there's not really much real evidence to support it.

If it's actually 186,000, then how many of them did Hamas kill? I've seen video of Hamas firing on Gazan civilians too. There are reports of Hamas stealing food and supplies for themselves, while letting civilians starve to death. I've seen reports of people getting killed when IDF bombed a Hamas target and a block and a half away a building suddenly collapses killing its occupants because it was undermined by the rat warren of Hamas tunnels. Hamas is culpable for many of those 186,000 deaths. Even if one were to admit just 25% of civilian deaths as Hamas having some culpability in them, that's still a very large number, larger than the number was when IDF first started to get accused of genocide. That means, if you want to accuse IDF of genocide against Gazans then by the same token Hamas is also genociding Gazans. In addition to many instances where Hamas called for the genocide of Jews. As such there is no "moral" pro-Palestine side or "moral" pro-Israeli side - there are just two immoral forces and some hapless innocent victims, both Gazan and Jew caught in the middle of it. That means, the only thing we can hope for is an end to it. I don't see any way whatsoever in which Hamas gets the leverage to make Israel capitulate. Their war against Israel is a fool's errand that only brings misery and suffering to Palestinians. They need to end it.