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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote]Yes, the key words are "present problems." Blacks in America today have problems today. So do poor whites. And immigrants. So lets fix what is front of us. We can't fix what is behind us.[/quote]

Ok, but black people face unique challenges in the US today because of the last 400 years of oppression.

Poor black people have more trauma and barriers than poor white people. 
[/quote]
I disagree.  They face unique challenges because of today's oppression.  Is George Floyd dead because his great grandfather was a slave, or because a cop put a knee on his neck? Is it harder for a black person to buy a house today because of slavery or because they can't get a loan? 
 History may explain why these things happen, but it doesn't cause them.  What we do right now causes today's problems.   And the solutions are all right now as well.[/quote]

Well, George Floyd wouldn't even be in Minneapolis if the US hadn't participated in chattel slavery. If he, his father, and grandfather had more opportunities then maybe he wouldn't have been an out-of-work bouncer who was possibly writing a forged check. If the US hadn't allowed white supremacy to flourish for centuries then perhaps the MPD wouldn't have had such a toxic, racist culture and officers like Chauvin would have been kicked out long ago. There are a series of historical atrocities that led to his death.

It's not just slavery - the issue is that the US has allowed white supremacy to go unchecked for centuries. Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. Those are all manifestations with "residual harm".

Certainly, black people DO face unique challenges in the US today because of the last 400 years of oppression. 
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If the US hadn't participated in chattel slavery, he'd be in West Africa. Then what?

I'm not arguing with you about the history is.  [b]I am arguing about the meaning of it for today[/b] and what to do about it.[/quote]

All of that led to where we are today. It all led to his death. That is the meaning. 
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I agree.  But it doesn't mean he is entitled to amy payment for whatever happened to his grandfather.  [/quote]

It's not just about slavery. He is entitled for his grandfather, father, and himself. 
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Well at least we are getting to the actual point.  No, he is only entitled for himself.  If he is,* then Jews are entitled to reparations for 2,000 of opprrssion.  Native Americans are entitled to the entire country.  And so on.[/quote]
That sjould say, "if he is entitled to payments for his ancestors, then"[/quote]

Ok. I agree with you. He’s not entitled for payment FOR his ancestors - just himself. Because he himself does suffer measurable “residual harm” from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, de facto segregation, etc. 
[/quote]

I never understood this argument, Native Americans have received reparations,  the tribes were awarded over $1.3 billion (1946) in compensation, and the tribes don't pay taxes on revenue generated on reservations, does it cover the cost of what was taken, no it doesn't, but is was something. The German govt paid, the Holocaust survivors, Israel and others have received $100s of millions of dollars in reparations, US courts, World courts are used to sue for the return of money, art, jewelry, etc., Does it make up for what they did, probably not, but it was something.  The Japanese who were in internment camps for 3 years, maybe less time and they each received $20,000 each ($1.25 billion to 60,000 Japanese Americans) and an apology letter (in 1988). Was that enough probably not, but at least it was something. 8 Sioux tribes were paid $122 mil in compensation for seized lands (1980).

A lot of reparation plans were bumped around during/post reconstruction, one that got the closest, $500 to each man/woman/child a one time payment, plus a pension of $15 a month.  Enough money for freed slaves to take their skills, buy homes, land and start over.  But it never happened. The slave owners were appeased they received reparations for each man/woman/child they were paid $300.

[/quote]
My mother received Holocaust money because she herself was a victim of the Nazis.  I would not claim I am entitled to receive anything, to "make up" for anything.  Likewise the Japanese internment camp victims were compensated for their personal suffering, not their ancestors.

Those courts returning stolen property only work if you can prove it was you or your family's personal property.  My father's family were oppressed in Poland for centuries, then forced to run from the Nazis, then worked forced labor in Russia, then finally escaped to the West. They got nothing, not even from the Germans.

Indian tribes are typically operated as collectives and have treaties or other agreements with the federal government. Federal money mostly pays the tribes, not individuals. But not only does the 1946 payment not make up for past injustices, all the stuff we do for the tribes doesn't even cover the crappy conditions, high unemployment and huge alcoholism on reservations right now.

If you want to follow the Indian model, I'd be happy with putting federal investments in black neighborhoods, giving more money to schools, supporting black businesses etc.  In fact we've been doing that a long time, only we don't call it reparations and it doesn't make much difference.

But overall, I think we are all better served if we concentrated on solving your present problems rather than trying to pay for a past that can never be repaid.  Or as a PP said, we should focus in making the US a better, happier place. [/quote]

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