Anonymous wrote:Sorry OP, nobody read the article. Are you the black nationalist poster? You know, long winded rambling responses about nonsense that you read in one of your extremist AA studies textbooks.

So, what if you are bi-racial? Do you pay, or get paid?

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Anonymous wrote:But I have a serious problem with justifying correcting today's problems because of what happened 400 years ago.

Why do you repeatedly refer to “400 years ago”? Seems like an attempt to falsely create distance from the very recent atrocities in our country.

Because that's the justification for "reparations," in the article. The justification is that BECAUSE this has been going on for 400 years, black people are entitled to something. That's very different from saying George Floyd's family should be compensated or we should reform the police today.

Saying "because of what happened 400 years ago" is very different than "because of what has happened for the last 400 years" - and given how precise you are with language it appears that you are intentionally distancing the atrocities.

Over what time period do you think the US has systematically oppressed black people and done harm?

How old do you think this country is?

Hint: the United States declared independence in 1776.

Black people have been transported and oppressed in the Americas for longer than 400 years, but the transatlantic slave trade began in earnest when the first human cargo arrived in Virginia in 1619.
https://time.com/5653369/august-1619-jamestown-history/

Slavery started in Africa with......... you guessed it......... Africans.

That doesn’t mean here in US they have been pushed down relentless.

How do fix that? Reparations ain’t it. Nobody (including myself) is going to give up their job, status, wealth, pay more taxes, or any other measure you can come up with to fix what has been happening. Why should I!? I’m an immigrant who has worked hard to have what I have.

They HAVE been pushed down relentlessly over the last 400 years.

Settle down immigrant guy. Nobody is coming for your stuff, and this country is full of people who work hard, nothing special about that. If reparations ever come to pass, and I hope the do, they will be a long overdue compensation, not a handout, and probably not nearly enough to right centuries of wrong.

Nothing special about taking advantage of the opportunities that this country affords, I have done my best to take advantage of them, be grateful that you were allowed to, you got lucky. There is a long line of lucky ducks who came before you, and a long line that will come after you. And an even longer line who will never get to come, although I say keep em coming, more people to pay for my social security, medicare and when the time comes, my reparations.

When you got here, or or you got here, doesn't matter. Put your time in, and one day you too may be able to collect social security, that when all is said and done I will have paid the max into for 35 years. Maybe you have to call the fire department one day, because your house is on fire. Who do you think bought that firetruck you called. That's right my taxes, so your point is silly. If a debt comes due, your hard earned money will be taxed, just like it is every minute of your life, and a tiny infinitesimal portion of your taxes, will go to pay reparations.

And also don't worry about your stuff. I don't want your stuff. I have lots of stuff. I don't want your success (whatever that means) I have that too, same for your wealth, have my own. Your job? Why would I want that? I am retiring soon, so I don't want that either.

Welcome to America, funded by the blood, sweat and tears of generations of people just like yourself, who came to America with a dream to do better. Congrats now get back to work.

So basically you want a tiny bit of money that you don't need for enormous harm you didn't suffer from people who didn't cause it? If that's all it is, I'll send you a $5 check and write "reparations" on it.

Because I got a bit nervous when the rich black guy from BET said he wanted $14 trillion.

I can imagine the rich black guy makes you very, very nervous. But $14 trillion would be a good start, I figure my cut would be about $360,000 not nearly enough, but it would be something.

Well, then it isn't a "tiny infinitesimal" portion of my taxes as PPP said. It's $40,000 out of my pocket going to someone worth $600 million. No, he isn't getting it.

You are personalizing this all a bit too much I think. Do you expect the national debt to be paid back in your lifetime? The answer is no it won't happen. Well the same with this. It just gets added to the national debt and, maybe it takes 6-7 generations for the debt to be paid off. Maybe 400 years, I find that rather fitting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will rich black Americans get paid?

What about immigrants who suffered more than any black American?

What about the largely successful African immigrants who are far more successful than their black american counterparts?

How about the Chinese who were victims of horrible discrimination and the largest lynching in US history?

Jews are the biggest victims of hate crimes every year. Do they get paid?

This is strictly for descendants of Black American slaves. I'm not getting into the who suffered the most Olympics.

Stay on point this is reparations for Black American's who are descendants of Black people who came over on a slave ship, approx. 400 years ago, and were then held in chattel slavery on US soil until they were either emancipated, bought their freedom, were freed or who escaped to freedom.

If you are Chinese American and you are a direct descendant of an ancestor and was held in bondage on US soil, 400 year ago, and toiled in the fields for generation after generation, then sure you can collect.

Same thing with Jewish Americans. If your family member was a Jewish American slave and 400 years ago they worked on a Plantation, day and night, down South, and you meet all of the above criteria, then sure you should be eligible as well.

Use the above as a litmus test, insert whatever group you are a part of and if you meet the criteria you too are available.

Otherwise if you think your group has been aggrieved, and you want reparations, then get your message out there, or don't.

I am not rich, I am probably solidly middle/upper middle, but I have no problem with rich Black American's participating, I imagine most of them would gift their money to a worthy cause.

Anonymous wrote:How does it work if you are a white guy married to a black woman. Is it basically a wash? Or do I pay her directly? So confusing!

Anonymous wrote:Will rich black Americans get paid?

What about immigrants who suffered more than any black American?

What about the largely successful African immigrants who are far more successful than their black american counterparts?

How about the Chinese who were victims of horrible discrimination and the largest lynching in US history?

Jews are the biggest victims of hate crimes every year. Do they get paid?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:But I have a serious problem with justifying correcting today's problems because of what happened 400 years ago.

Why do you repeatedly refer to “400 years ago”? Seems like an attempt to falsely create distance from the very recent atrocities in our country.

Because that's the justification for "reparations," in the article. The justification is that BECAUSE this has been going on for 400 years, black people are entitled to something. That's very different from saying George Floyd's family should be compensated or we should reform the police today.

Saying "because of what happened 400 years ago" is very different than "because of what has happened for the last 400 years" - and given how precise you are with language it appears that you are intentionally distancing the atrocities.

Over what time period do you think the US has systematically oppressed black people and done harm?

How old do you think this country is?

Hint: the United States declared independence in 1776.

Black people have been transported and oppressed in the Americas for longer than 400 years, but the transatlantic slave trade began in earnest when the first human cargo arrived in Virginia in 1619.
https://time.com/5653369/august-1619-jamestown-history/

Slavery started in Africa with......... you guessed it......... Africans.

That doesn’t mean here in US they have been pushed down relentless.

How do fix that? Reparations ain’t it. Nobody (including myself) is going to give up their job, status, wealth, pay more taxes, or any other measure you can come up with to fix what has been happening. Why should I!? I’m an immigrant who has worked hard to have what I have.

They HAVE been pushed down relentlessly over the last 400 years.

Settle down immigrant guy. Nobody is coming for your stuff, and this country is full of people who work hard, nothing special about that. If reparations ever come to pass, and I hope the do, they will be a long overdue compensation, not a handout, and probably not nearly enough to right centuries of wrong.

Nothing special about taking advantage of the opportunities that this country affords, I have done my best to take advantage of them, be grateful that you were allowed to, you got lucky. There is a long line of lucky ducks who came before you, and a long line that will come after you. And an even longer line who will never get to come, although I say keep em coming, more people to pay for my social security, medicare and when the time comes, my reparations.

When you got here, or or you got here, doesn't matter. Put your time in, and one day you too may be able to collect social security, that when all is said and done I will have paid the max into for 35 years. Maybe you have to call the fire department one day, because your house is on fire. Who do you think bought that firetruck you called. That's right my taxes, so your point is silly. If a debt comes due, your hard earned money will be taxed, just like it is every minute of your life, and a tiny infinitesimal portion of your taxes, will go to pay reparations.

And also don't worry about your stuff. I don't want your stuff. I have lots of stuff. I don't want your success (whatever that means) I have that too, same for your wealth, have my own. Your job? Why would I want that? I am retiring soon, so I don't want that either.

Welcome to America, funded by the blood, sweat and tears of generations of people just like yourself, who came to America with a dream to do better. Congrats now get back to work.

So basically you want a tiny bit of money that you don't need for enormous harm you didn't suffer from people who didn't cause it? If that's all it is, I'll send you a $5 check and write "reparations" on it.

Because I got a bit nervous when the rich black guy from BET said he wanted $14 trillion.

I can imagine the rich black guy makes you very, very nervous. But $14 trillion would be a good start, I figure my cut would be about $360,000 not nearly enough, but it would be something.

Well, then it isn't a "tiny infinitesimal" portion of my taxes as PPP said. It's $40,000 out of my pocket going to someone worth $600 million. No, he isn't getting it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No.

I’m interested in opinions from people who’ve read the essay.

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Anonymous wrote:

Yes, the key words are "present problems." Blacks in America today have problems today. So do poor whites. And immigrants. So lets fix what is front of us. We can't fix what is behind us.

Ok, but black people face unique challenges in the US today because of the last 400 years of oppression.

Poor black people have more trauma and barriers than poor white people.

I disagree. They face unique challenges because of today's oppression. Is George Floyd dead because his great grandfather was a slave, or because a cop put a knee on his neck? Is it harder for a black person to buy a house today because of slavery or because they can't get a loan?
History may explain why these things happen, but it doesn't cause them. What we do right now causes today's problems. And the solutions are all right now as well.

Well, George Floyd wouldn't even be in Minneapolis if the US hadn't participated in chattel slavery. If he, his father, and grandfather had more opportunities then maybe he wouldn't have been an out-of-work bouncer who was possibly writing a forged check. If the US hadn't allowed white supremacy to flourish for centuries then perhaps the MPD wouldn't have had such a toxic, racist culture and officers like Chauvin would have been kicked out long ago. There are a series of historical atrocities that led to his death.

It's not just slavery - the issue is that the US has allowed white supremacy to go unchecked for centuries. Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. Those are all manifestations with "residual harm".

Certainly, black people DO face unique challenges in the US today because of the last 400 years of oppression.

If the US hadn't participated in chattel slavery, he'd be in West Africa. Then what?

I'm not arguing with you about the history is. I am arguing about the meaning of it for today and what to do about it.

All of that led to where we are today. It all led to his death. That is the meaning.

I agree. But it doesn't mean he is entitled to amy payment for whatever happened to his grandfather.

It's not just about slavery. He is entitled for his grandfather, father, and himself.

Well at least we are getting to the actual point. No, he is only entitled for himself. If he is,* then Jews are entitled to reparations for 2,000 of opprrssion. Native Americans are entitled to the entire country. And so on.

That sjould say, "if he is entitled to payments for his ancestors, then"

Ok. I agree with you. He’s not entitled for payment FOR his ancestors - just himself. Because he himself does suffer measurable “residual harm” from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, de facto segregation, etc.

I never understood this argument, Native Americans have received reparations, the tribes were awarded over $1.3 billion (1946) in compensation, and the tribes don't pay taxes on revenue generated on reservations, does it cover the cost of what was taken, no it doesn't, but is was something. The German govt paid, the Holocaust survivors, Israel and others have received $100s of millions of dollars in reparations, US courts, World courts are used to sue for the return of money, art, jewelry, etc., Does it make up for what they did, probably not, but it was something. The Japanese who were in internment camps for 3 years, maybe less time and they each received $20,000 each ($1.25 billion to 60,000 Japanese Americans) and an apology letter (in 1988). Was that enough probably not, but at least it was something. 8 Sioux tribes were paid $122 mil in compensation for seized lands (1980).

A lot of reparation plans were bumped around during/post reconstruction, one that got the closest, $500 to each man/woman/child a one time payment, plus a pension of $15 a month. Enough money for freed slaves to take their skills, buy homes, land and start over. But it never happened. The slave owners were appeased they received reparations for each man/woman/child they were paid $300.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But I have a serious problem with justifying correcting today's problems because of what happened 400 years ago.

Why do you repeatedly refer to “400 years ago”? Seems like an attempt to falsely create distance from the very recent atrocities in our country.

Because that's the justification for "reparations," in the article. The justification is that BECAUSE this has been going on for 400 years, black people are entitled to something. That's very different from saying George Floyd's family should be compensated or we should reform the police today.

Saying "because of what happened 400 years ago" is very different than "because of what has happened for the last 400 years" - and given how precise you are with language it appears that you are intentionally distancing the atrocities.

Over what time period do you think the US has systematically oppressed black people and done harm?

How old do you think this country is?

Hint: the United States declared independence in 1776.

Black people have been transported and oppressed in the Americas for longer than 400 years, but the transatlantic slave trade began in earnest when the first human cargo arrived in Virginia in 1619.
https://time.com/5653369/august-1619-jamestown-history/

Slavery started in Africa with......... you guessed it......... Africans.

That doesn’t mean here in US they have been pushed down relentless.

How do fix that? Reparations ain’t it. Nobody (including myself) is going to give up their job, status, wealth, pay more taxes, or any other measure you can come up with to fix what has been happening. Why should I!? I’m an immigrant who has worked hard to have what I have.

They HAVE been pushed down relentlessly over the last 400 years.

Settle down immigrant guy. Nobody is coming for your stuff, and this country is full of people who work hard, nothing special about that. If reparations ever come to pass, and I hope the do, they will be a long overdue compensation, not a handout, and probably not nearly enough to right centuries of wrong.

Nothing special about taking advantage of the opportunities that this country affords, I have done my best to take advantage of them, be grateful that you were allowed to, you got lucky. There is a long line of lucky ducks who came before you, and a long line that will come after you. And an even longer line who will never get to come, although I say keep em coming, more people to pay for my social security, medicare and when the time comes, my reparations.

When you got here, or or you got here, doesn't matter. Put your time in, and one day you too may be able to collect social security, that when all is said and done I will have paid the max into for 35 years. Maybe you have to call the fire department one day, because your house is on fire. Who do you think bought that firetruck you called. That's right my taxes, so your point is silly. If a debt comes due, your hard earned money will be taxed, just like it is every minute of your life, and a tiny infinitesimal portion of your taxes, will go to pay reparations.

And also don't worry about your stuff. I don't want your stuff. I have lots of stuff. I don't want your success (whatever that means) I have that too, same for your wealth, have my own. Your job? Why would I want that? I am retiring soon, so I don't want that either.

Welcome to America, funded by the blood, sweat and tears of generations of people just like yourself, who came to America with a dream to do better. Congrats now get back to work.

So basically you want a tiny bit of money that you don't need for enormous harm you didn't suffer from people who didn't cause it? If that's all it is, I'll send you a $5 check and write "reparations" on it.

Because I got a bit nervous when the rich black guy from BET said he wanted $14 trillion.

I can imagine the rich black guy makes you very, very nervous. But $14 trillion would be a good start, I figure my cut would be about $360,000 not nearly enough, but it would be something.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, the key words are "present problems." Blacks in America today have problems today. So do poor whites. And immigrants. So lets fix what is front of us. We can't fix what is behind us.

Ok, but black people face unique challenges in the US today because of the last 400 years of oppression.

Poor black people have more trauma and barriers than poor white people.

I disagree. They face unique challenges because of today's oppression. Is George Floyd dead because his great grandfather was a slave, or because a cop put a knee on his neck? Is it harder for a black person to buy a house today because of slavery or because they can't get a loan?
History may explain why these things happen, but it doesn't cause them. What we do right now causes today's problems. And the solutions are all right now as well.

Well, George Floyd wouldn't even be in Minneapolis if the US hadn't participated in chattel slavery. If he, his father, and grandfather had more opportunities then maybe he wouldn't have been an out-of-work bouncer who was possibly writing a forged check. If the US hadn't allowed white supremacy to flourish for centuries then perhaps the MPD wouldn't have had such a toxic, racist culture and officers like Chauvin would have been kicked out long ago. There are a series of historical atrocities that led to his death.

It's not just slavery - the issue is that the US has allowed white supremacy to go unchecked for centuries. Slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. Those are all manifestations with "residual harm".

Certainly, black people DO face unique challenges in the US today because of the last 400 years of oppression.

If the US hadn't participated in chattel slavery, he'd be in West Africa. Then what?

I'm not arguing with you about the history is. I am arguing about the meaning of it for today and what to do about it.

All of that led to where we are today. It all led to his death. That is the meaning.

I agree. But it doesn't mean he is entitled to amy payment for whatever happened to his grandfather.

It's not just about slavery. He is entitled for his grandfather, father, and himself.

Well at least we are getting to the actual point. No, he is only entitled for himself. If he is,* then Jews are entitled to reparations for 2,000 of opprrssion. Native Americans are entitled to the entire country. And so on.

That sjould say, "if he is entitled to payments for his ancestors, then"

Ok. I agree with you. He’s not entitled for payment FOR his ancestors - just himself. Because he himself does suffer measurable “residual harm” from slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, de facto segregation, etc.

I never understood this argument, Native Americans have received reparations, the tribes were awarded over $1.3 billion (1946) in compensation, and the tribes don't pay taxes on revenue generated on reservations, does it cover the cost of what was taken, no it doesn't, but is was something. The German govt paid, the Holocaust survivors, Israel and others have received $100s of millions of dollars in reparations, US courts, World courts are used to sue for the return of money, art, jewelry, etc., Does it make up for what they did, probably not, but it was something. The Japanese who were in internment camps for 3 years, maybe less time and they each received $20,000 each ($1.25 billion to 60,000 Japanese Americans) and an apology letter (in 1988). Was that enough probably not, but at least it was something. 8 Sioux tribes were paid $122 mil in compensation for seized lands (1980).

A lot of reparation plans were bumped around during/post reconstruction, one that got the closest, $500 to each man/woman/child a one time payment, plus a pension of $15 a month. Enough money for freed slaves to take their skills, buy homes, land and start over. But it never happened. The slave owners were appeased they received reparations for each man/woman/child they were paid $300.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the argument would be more persuasive if it relied less on concepts of fairness and inequity and focused more on the case for how it will make the U.S. a happier, more functional place to live.

That’s a great point.

I think it’d ideally be part of a broader program of social reform with the end goals of:
- housing & education integration
- equality in health, economics, education, etc.

I'm an UMC African American and I agree with the PPP. How would reparations make things better? I'm skeptical. I do think you'll see some institutions try to address reparations head on, like Georgetown University did.

And to the poster that asked about upper middle class Black people, I can provide evidence of missed opportunities due to racism and discrimination that happened to my father, grandfather and great-grandfather. For example, my father had to accept a higher interest loan to move into a white neighborhood (mid-1970s) and also put down a high down payment - the previous white owner liked my dad and had to vouch for him in order for the loan to go through. I now live in this house. we got lucky with this - meanwhile there is documented evidence in local neighborhoods of whites actively keeping people out - Shepherd Park, the AU neighborhood are some that come to mind.

Great-grandfather owned land in a southern state there were well coordinated attempts by whites in this particular community to use violence to get Blacks to turn over their land - some was lost. A great-uncle in the same state owned a general store and kept his cash savings there because guess what, he couldn't put his money in a bank. The KKK burned the store down and the money went with it. On my fathers side I had two uncles that served in WWII. Guess what, they came home to nothing and couldn't buy homes or obtain good jobs since they went back home to segregated communities. One turned to a life of crime to support himself. Black families have hundreds of stories like this and all of this adds up to equity that was lost and not built and unable to be passed on. Notice I did not once mention slavery - all of this is an outgrowth of slavery and the continued subjugation of Black people.