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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]But her recommendations (and observations) are more credible than the conclusions you’re drawing from bizarrely- aggregated data.

In terms of absolute numbers, significantly more PhDs earn their BAs or BSs at major research universities than at LACs.  NSF adopted the yield ratio (number of PhD recipients divided by number of BA recipients in the same (broadly defined) field) as a secondary measure because LACs weren’t showing up at all in the top 50 producers of S&E PHDs.  Which didn’t seem a fair representation of their role in science education.  Basically, you need both pieces of data (as well as more data about subfield representation at specific LACs) to make an intelligent choice as to where your DC should go to college if s/he hopes to pursue a science PhD.

And depth and breadth of research opportunities on campus is definitely something to focus on.  [/quote]

Why wouldn't it be a fair representation? Do you realize how tiny LACs are, yet how much of a weight they pack as a collective force?

https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/ has absolute numbers listed. Let's compare UC Berkeley (30000 undergrads), which yielded 3406 bachelor's students who went onto receive STEM PhDs, to LACs in the top 20:

Harvey Mudd (800 undergrads, 359 recipients), Reed (1400, 374), Swarthmore (1600, 472), Carleton (2000, 555), Grinnell (1800, 366), Pomona (1650, 345), Haverford (1200, 269), Williams (2000, 451), Bryn Mawr (1700, 245). Collectively, this amounts to 3436 PhD recipients at a population of 14,150. These 9 LACs are producing more STEM PhDs on an [b]ABSOLUTE[/b] scale than UC Berkeley, which has more than double the undergraduate population. You can compare against Stanford + Harvard as well- 15500 undergraduates total, 3153 receiving PhDs. Do you see the issue? If your point is that these LACs are not significant, then your point is also that UC Berkeley or Harvard + Stanford are not significant for leading undergraduates to PhDs.

Your argument was:
1) Research is non-existent at LACs lacking research faculty (which isn't even a thing among the top LACs- virtually all science professors do some form of research). This is incorrect, LAC graduates are the most likely of all classifications of colleges to have done research with a faculty member- by far (the national average is 23%, no other classification comes close).
2) You are far more likely to get "real research" (whatever that means) at a larger school. Given that research experience/letters of references are one of the most important aspects of getting admitted to PhD programs, if these LACs  are disproportionately represented, their graduates seem to do just fine in obtaining the necessary experiences.

Is your point that LAC graduates aren't getting into the best PhD programs? What's your proof of that? At the top LACs, it seems that a significant cohort goes off to the top graduate schools each year. Williams lists Harvard, Yale, and Columbia as the top 3 destinations for students going onto a PhD program. Swarthmore lists UPenn, Harvard, Yale, Cornell, Columbia, MIT, UChicago, Oxford, Stanford, and Princeton as its top 10, and the biggest percent of their alumni group is scientists at 18%. [/quote]

The post you are quoting is mine but it’s the only one I’ve made in this thread on this particular topic (LACs vs MRUs).  So when you say “your argument was” you’re wrong.  My point was the pro-major research university poster was right that it was important for a PhD aspiring undergrad to take a careful look at the depth and range of research opportunities available on/near campus.  I also agree that the sweet spot may be medium-sized universities with high volumes of research.

FWIW, you’re demonstrating my point about bizarre aggregation.  In the context of this discussion, why does it matter that 9 LACs combined produced more PhDs than Berkeley?  No kid is choosing between going to 9 different LACs vs going to Berkeley.  And, presumably, you recognize that the fact that top LACs send (small numbers of, but comparatively high percentages of) kids to top PhD programs doesn’t mean top PhD programs are filled with kids from LACs.  Also the % who have done research with a faculty member stat is so vague as to be meaningless (not limited to science, not school-specific, not limited to undergrads going on to PhDs, and probably self-reported, so god knows what it means.)

Yes, a talented, highly-motivated kid can get into a top PhD program from a LAC.  But that doesn’t mean that’s the best route for most kids.  Or that any LAC 
is a good start.  Basically, LACs have small departments with small faculties and limited course offerings.  If you get lucky and you find an ambitious and simpatico faculty member in a subfield you come to love, then all’s well.  But an undecided undergrad has many more opportunities to find people to work with and fields to explore in a more research-rich environment.

Also, as someone who has taught and studied and now has a kid studying in medium sized MRUs, my experience in all roles has been that working closely with faculty is easy if you’re the kind of undergrad who will end up in a PhD program.  Those kids stand out and get mentored.  I’m not saying don’t look at LACs.  I’m saying look closely at specific LACs and have your DC compare course offerings, faculty, and research opportunities with departments in other types of schools.  And keep in mind/impress upon DC the need for Plan B or C.  Don’t assume that DC will major in a specific field or knows now whether s/he will ultimately want to go to grad school and what kind.  Look for schools where there are lots of different things that interest DC.  But feel free to rule out schools where DC’s current most likely interests will not be well-served.

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