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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
[b]I will look for the evidence you seek regarding the numbers. [/b]

I will look forward either to your numbers or to your admission that these numbers do not exist, and the comment about Islam growing by conversion more than immigration in the U.S. is your theory unsupported by evidence.

[b]
Meanwhile, why devote so much to explaining that some percentage of Islam includes ghetto or African Americans? WTH? Why is the color of their skin or economic status noteworthy in discussing population numbers? Regardless of color of skin and economic status, they COUNT. Moreover, Islam does not care about the color of anyone's skin or economic status. [/b]

Because when a new concept or product makes inroads in the market, the sponsors of this concept of products usually pay attention to the demographics of their customers.  Let's flip this around. If the majority of the Muslim converts in the U.S. were Harvard graduates, I would bet my firstborn that this fact will be present in every single piece of dawa literature CAIR hands out.  So it seems equally legitimate to present the analysis of the real population of American Muslims and to note where most of them come from.  These are the forgotten Muslims whose voice has never been included in the political Muslim discourse - simply because this population doesn't have the wherewithal to become political.  But they are Muslims nevertheless, and they have specific needs and challenges.  It isn't becoming of you to insist that they a)don't exist, or b) are Muslims like any other. The challenges faced by this population are very different from those faced by immigrant Muslims. Yet Muslim discourse in America is shaped by wealthy immigrant Muslims.

Islam may not care about anyone's skin color or economic status. But Muslims do.

[b]
People from France to African Americans are converting and in God's eyes their devotion is equal. Perhaps this is why so many African Americans do convert to Islam- they feel welcomed in Islam. [/b]

African-Americans convert to Islam for many reasons. If you want to talk about that population intelligently, do a bit of reading and progress to beyond "perhaps."  They aren't like you. Their problems are not like your problems.

[b]However, what I described to you in previous pages was the face of the new Muslim. The new Muslim will be a blend of mixed races. And every successive generation will be more wealthy. Iranian Muslims, Arab Muslims, and Pakistan Muslims that are first generation are fairly wealthy and well educated. This pattern will continue. You would never recognize my kids as " Muslim" if you saw them. This is the new face of Islam. But the new generation is not losing their faith in the process of assimilation. [/b]

In the U.S., they are, because the U.S. enforces education and income barriers to entry. In Europe, not so. These Muslims aren't wealthy or educated.

I should also mention, for reality's sake, that Iranian Muslims are a separate population with whom mainstream Sunni Islam seeks no particular affiliation.  You can spin your tales of Muslim unity when you succeed in eradicating the term "rafidah" from the Sunni discourse.

[b]Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's..[/b]

Oh dear.  There are three Muslims in my house already.  There is a certainly-Muslim child growing in my womb. You don't frighten me with Muslim anything.  I lived among them all my life. I know Muslim reality, both here and elsewhere.  The Muslim reality in the U.S. is this:

- the prediction of Muslims in every block, if not in every house, is not supported by demographic evidence, unless your definition of "soon" differs from most people mean.  If you brought numbers to show the forecast of Muslim population in the U.S, that'd be different. But all you brought is your own passion.  Very nice, eh, but unconvincing.

Realistic criticism of your religion is not an insult, unless you a sort of Muslim to whom everyone who doesn't like Islam is an offender.

It's not an insult to say many Muslim-Americans hail from the ghetto.  They do.  That's their economic and demographic reality.  If you don't like the word ghetto, how about this: many Muslim-Americans are black, poor, have below-high school education and often a prison record.  They are also ignored by wealthy immigrant Muslims who think their voices are enough to shape Muslim discourse in America.

Polite enough for you?[/quote]

Aaaahhh, so you pointed out that many Muslims are African American and from ghettos to provide valuable demographic and marketing information in case DCUMers wish to market products to them? People are chuckling right now, particularly the African Americans and those from ghettos. I never mentioned the race or economic status of converts because it's irrelevant. No matter how dark their complexion or fat their wallets, they still count as converts. In fact, I actually can not confirm or deny your assertion that most converts are African American or from ghettos as it was never importnat enough a factor for me, as a Muslim, to research or learn about.

Realistic criticism is welcome. Calling our beloved prophet a pedophile is not a realistic criticism. It's an insult. And the accusation that our prophet was a pedophile was flung early on in this thread by some. Not a good way to begin a sober discourse if people's intent is simply to understand Islamic principles, is it?

Was it you that also said Islam commands death for apostasy? If so, once again, you are wrong because you resort heavily on your cliff notes version of the Sharia and insist on doing so, despite my telling you that Sharia is man made law, not God's law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, rely on the Quran only and rely on reputable scholarly work to interpret it if you are confused about anything. Living with three Muslims has obviously not been enough to help clarify your misunderstanding about Islam. Why did you not contact a reutable scholar or Imam to better understand Islam then? Why get on DCUM and repeat the false and vile accusations about Islam?

Since it appears you may not have sought authoritative sources to clarify your misunderstanding about Islam, I will provide it. Hamza Yusuf is a very reputable Islamic scholar in the US. He's an American convert. Btw, he's caucasian and from a well established, wealthy Californian family…just providing this information for the DCUM marketers out there. lol lol

Hamza Yusuf may be accessible via a phone call. If you are truly interested in clarifying your misunderstanding you would call him. Here is his bio:

"He is one of the leading proponents of classical learning in Islam. He has promoted Islamic sciences and classical teaching methodologies throughout the world. He has also been a strong advocate for social justice, peace, and conviviality among peoples and places. For several years, he has argued that the "them versus us" problem is fundamentally flawed, as he considers himself one of "them" as well as one of "us."Hamza Yusuf is a cofounder of Zaytuna College, located in Berkeley, California. He is an advisor to Stanford University's Program in Islamic Studies and the Center for Islamic Studies at Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union. He also serves as a member of the board of advisors of George Russell's One Nation, a national philanthropic initiative that promotes pluralism and inclusion in America. In addition, he serves as vice-president for the Global Center for Guidance and Renewal, which was founded and is currently presided over by Shaykh Abdallah bin Bayyah, one of the top jurists and masters of Islamic sciences in the world. Recently, Hamza Yusuf was ranked as "the Western world's most influential Islamic scholar" by The 500 Most Influential Muslims, edited by John Esposito and Ibrahim Kalin, (2009).

Hamza Yusuf is one of the leading proponents of classical learning in Islam. He has promoted Islamic sciences and classical teaching methodologies throughout the world. He has also been a strong advocate for social justice, peace, and conviviality among peoples and places. For several years, he has argued that the "them versus us" problem is fundamentally flawed, as he considers himself one of "them" as well as one of "us"."

Here is a link to Humza Yusuf explaining how true Islam handles apostasy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naEj915VU20

Let me know if anyone has problems with this link.[/quote]

You often hear lukewarm and moderate Muslims saying that fundamentalists, Wahhabists and Islamists do not represent true Islam. They are lying. It is the moderates who are not following true Islam.

In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.

4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Al-Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)

(4) As the final example from Bukhari’s collection, this hadith promises a reward on the Day of Resurrection for killing apostates in the last days:

. . . No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." (Bukhari)[/quote]

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