Anonymous
09/04/2014 13:30
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Busted. Again. How many times has this been?
Muslima's sins of ommission were bad enough. I'm simply amazed how this other Muslim PP has the gall to deny things that are in the Quran itself. Isn't the Quran purportely God's direct word to Muhammad? I'm referring to how this PP denies the Quranic verses mandating death for apostates and the obligation to convert non-believers.
Is this how dawwah works, and how converts are made? Tell potential converts 1/2 the story, and lie in response to direct questions. Then when it's too late, the converts can never recant because of aforesaid apostasy rules.
Muslima's sins of ommission were bad enough. I'm simply amazed how this other Muslim PP has the gall to deny things that are in the Quran itself. Isn't the Quran purportely God's direct word to Muhammad? I'm referring to how this PP denies the Quranic verses mandating death for apostates and the obligation to convert non-believers.
Is this how dawwah works, and how converts are made? Tell potential converts 1/2 the story, and lie in response to direct questions. Then when it's too late, the converts can never recant because of aforesaid apostasy rules.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 13:22
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I'm done with the effort to be respectful. Let's rephrase, shall we? ISLAM PERMITS MUSLIM SOLDIERS TO RAPE NON-MUSLIM WOMEN CAPTIVES.
I haven't even begun to address this new accusation now about captives. Lets see..we went from Muhammad being a pedophile to Islam being unjust in divorce, testimony, inheritance, then the very noteworthy info that many converts are, gasp, African American, and poor too.. and not one of Muslima's or my explanations did you accept but now we're onto the topic of captives, are we?
And all of that was you being respectful?
I never addressed the point about Mary that you or others brought up because I thought it moot. Isn't Mary equally revered in the Christian faith? Do Christians not pray to Mary also? Are there not statues of Mary around or in Christian places of worship? If Muhammad was a pedophile in (brace yourself, its coming again) 600 AD, then why do you say "Hail Mary" prayers and have statues of her in your churches given the disgrace of becoming pregnant, particularly in that time, with no husband?
Apparently you don't truly think the point about Mary is moot, because you keep repeating that she's a porn queen and talking about it in terms of "disgrace." Once again: being a slut involves consent, but Mary's situation did not bring consent into the picture. You seem to be having difficulty understanding the issue of female consent.
Catholics pray to Mary, I believe as an intercessor rather than, as you seem to imply, someone with godlike powers to change things. Perhaps a Catholic can clarify. Other Christian denominations don't pray to Mary and may or may not have statues in their churches.
Finally, the point about captives starts on about page 2-3 of this thread, so it isn't "new." I get that clarifying your half-truths about captives, divorce, inheritance, testimony and the dearth of statistics on converts amounts to "disrespect" in your eyes. But I think the discourse has been respectful and focused on drilling down to the full truths and facts about these things (except for the pedophile poster who, I repeat, is not me). It would truly be interesting to see you finally address the captive issue.
(Also: you messed up the ellipses again. Twice. In the middle of a sentence you want 3 dots, and at end of a sentence you want 4 dots. You never want 2 dots. Also, "let's" not "lets" and "it's" not "its".)
The moot point is having to literally draw for you the connection between Mary to Christianity to illustrate her relevance, not that her "disgraced" status was irrelevant. Wow. Just wow. Did I need to explain that too??
Anonymous
09/04/2014 13:17
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I have heard of Christian missionary groups but I have never heard of Muslim missionary groups, have you? I worked with refugee Muslim families and they told me about Christian missionary groups on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are impoverished Muslim families and the familes tell me that Christian missionary groups sweep in, providing baskets of food and water but also quite a few brochures on "Jesus, our Savior." lol Honestly, Muslims NEVER want people to convert under compulsion or coercion. It has to be through revelation and divine guidance. Muslima was speaking in "flowery" terms not because she was proselytizing, but simply because she clearly is devoted and loves her faith. Nothing wrong with that! It just irritated the hell out of you that she spoke so positively about her faith, thats all.
I think Muslima and I have been informative and answered questions to the best of our ability. I think we've done a fine job. I'm glad that now this thread will permanently remain with links included for people to learn more about true Islam. My intention was never to convert anyone, but simply to remove some of the hatred and vile accusations against a religion that is dear to billions of people.
Please, just stop. Islam is ALL about conversion. You deny the "compulsion" part, and that lack of compulsion is probably true in many areas. But compulsion MOST DEFINITELY EXISTS in Muslim-run areas where non-Muslim dhimmis face economic sanctions for not converting, and where polytheists are subject to slavery for not converting (I'm thinking of Mauritania, for example).
You simply can't, and shouldn't feign, ignorance about Muslim efforts to convert people. For example, a mosque in Virginia leaves flyers on doorsteps (my non-Muslim coworker finds them on her doorstep) about Islam. Some flyers talk about the "truths of Islam" and one flyer even argued that Islam isn't really anti-dog (yes, I understand the various positions about cats vs. dogs, but I think we can all agree we don't want to get into that one.)
The fact that you and Muslima are deliberately painting a distorted picture of Islam is proof enough that you're trying to convert people. (Sorry, but a distorted picture is not "fine job" at all, and clarifying the distortions isn't "vile" unless you think the truth about your religion is "vile.") That, plus the fact that you're practically salivating over the prospect (completely fantastical and unsupported by any stats) of a Muslim on every block, speak more truly to your desire to convert.
(Also: "that's all" not "thats" all.)
You are intentionally screwing up this thread to deflect from the truth. Yes, my dear, punishment for apostasy exists, as does stoning for adultery and beheadings, but by a version of Islam that has zero basis in the Quran. The political solution is for clerics, imams, and mullahs in those countries where culture is deeply entrenched in Islam to meet with US and European clerics, imams, and mullahs and re-evaluate their understanding. In such countries they used to bury female infants. They were, and in some respects, remain an ignorant pseudo muslim society.
Islam in America or Europe as taught by reputable scholars is free of those old cultural restraints, and that is why it is TRUE islam.
If you truly want to know about true Islam you would check out the Islamic scholar Hamza Yusuf's youtube lectures. Google him rather than cutting and posting your cliff notes of oppressive Sharia laws.
And I mentioned that Hamza Yusuf was Muslim as a mockery and in reference to the pp who felt it noteworthy to expose that most of Islams converts were of African descent. Our own prophet was middle eastern and possibly dark complected, so whether anyone is dark or light complected is irrelevant to God in Islam.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 13:08
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Aaaahhh, so you pointed out that many Muslims are African American and from ghettos to provide valuable demographic and marketing information in case DCUMers wish to market products to them? People are chuckling right now, particularly the African Americans and those from ghettos. I never mentioned the race or economic status of converts because it's irrelevant. No matter how dark their complexion or fat their wallets, they still count as converts. In fact, I actually can not confirm or deny your assertion that most converts are African American or from ghettos as it was never importnat enough a factor for me, as a Muslim, to research or learn about.
No, silly. I will explain. Islam is the product. Converts are the customers. "Who is buying what we're selling?" - is a question reasonably asked by any product sponsor. In that context, the information on who are the converts and where they are hailing from is an essential piece of information. The spread of Islam in prisons and ghettos is a part of your religion's history in this country. There are many other parts. This one exists as well. It doesn't look good for you to deny that, or to say that it's irrelevant, because if most of Muslim converts were MIT graduates, we'd hear about it non-stop.
You don't need to confirm or deny it, Pew Center has done it for you.
Realistic criticism is welcome. Calling our beloved prophet a pedophile is not a realistic criticism. It's an insult. And the accusation that our prophet was a pedophile was flung early on in this thread by some. Not a good way to begin a sober discourse if people's intent is simply to understand Islamic principles, is it?
I never called your prophet a pedophile; his marital history is not a concern to me. Both Aisha and her family benefited from that marriage so if they are happy, who am I to say they shouldn't be? Aisha was Abu Bakr's daughter. Abu Bakr was one of the prophet's nearest companions and one of the rulers who came after him. Intermarriages in powerful families are common enough, and so was that marriage. I think of this as the next president offering his daughter to the current president. Common.
Was it you that also said Islam commands death for apostasy? If so, once again, you are wrong because you resort heavily on your cliff notes version of the Sharia and insist on doing so, despite my telling you that Sharia is man made law, not God's law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, rely on the Quran only and rely on reputable scholarly work to interpret it if you are confused about anything. Living with three Muslims has obviously not been enough to help clarify your misunderstanding about Islam. Why did you not contact a reutable scholar or Imam to better understand Islam then? Why get on DCUM and repeat the false and vile accusations about Islam?
Since it appears you may not have sought authoritative sources to clarify your misunderstanding about Islam, I will provide it. Hamza Yusuf is a very reputable Islamic scholar in the US. He's an American convert. Btw, he's caucasian and from a well established, wealthy Californian family…just providing this information for the DCUM marketers out there. lol lol
Hamza Yusuf may be accessible via a phone call. If you are truly interested in clarifying your misunderstanding you would call him.
This is the real part of your comment that needs to be addressed. You explained your theological position clearly. You are a Quranist, the follower of the Quran-only movement that discounts all other sources except the Quran. That's a legitimate position. You don't see Shariah as a valid source of information about Islam's views on life. That's OK. (You aren't yearning to become the next Muhammad Asad, are you? He didn't really end well, you know.)
What is not OK is your position that anyone who looks, and finds Shariah and OTHER interpretations of Islam that are less pretty than what Zaitouna's peacenik crowd preaches must be doing it from cliff's notes. My dear, you are not the first person in the world to crack open the Quran. You are not the first person to think about it. And you aren't the first person to write about it. You don't have a secret eye. The study of Islam did not begin with Hamza Yusuf, he is simply the guy you like best. Whether you like it or not, there exists a body of Islamic theological law - well yes, that's Shariah! - and scholarship underlying it that was built since Islam came on the scene. You think Shariah's illegitimate; that's OK. But for every one of you, there are millions of people, including people in turbans, who believe it is divine - are they all ignorant? Or learning from cliff's notes? (Also, I think it's cute that you get all frothy with "despite ME TELLING YOU Shariah is manmade". Who are you exactly? Why does your position on Shariah - which is markedly different from the position of the Islamic establishment - matters or is in any way authoritative?)
All these people read the Quran too. They came to conclusions that are different from you. You aren't inventing this thing from scratch. Tons and tons of books have been written on the subject; multiple schools of thoughts exist, and they have very definite position on plural marriage, on slavery, on apostasy, on treatment of polytheists that didn't come from Sheikh Google. There's Ibn Taymiyya. There's the whole Al Azhar crowd. There is a Bin Baz crowd. There's a bunch of universities named after King something. There's the mufti brigade behind islamqa.com. There's the Muhammad Abdelwahhab cooperative. There's Yusuf Qaradawi, god bless his heart. There is, somewhere, a group of turbans servicing ISIS and handing out rulings that what they do is OK. I get that you disagree with them. I get that you think they are manmade, reactionary, backwards, whatever. (I think the whole thing is manmade). But one thing that you cannot say about them is that they learned Islam from cliff's notes. They read the same Quran you do. They read it differently from you. You can disagree with their conclusions, that's your right. What you cannot do is say they aren't learned people. They are all Islamic scholars, to a man. And just like you refer people to Hamza Yusuf, I can refer people to the Bin Baz folks on islamqa.com - aren't they learned? aren't they reputable? aren't they authoritative? Isn't Qardawi? You're shopping for sources, which is perfectly fine, you found the one you like. But don't act like every OTHER source comes from ignorance because they can take up Hamza Yusuf degree by degree, and come out on top.
No, silly. I will explain. Islam is the product. Converts are the customers. "Who is buying what we're selling?" - is a question reasonably asked by any product sponsor. In that context, the information on who are the converts and where they are hailing from is an essential piece of information. The spread of Islam in prisons and ghettos is a part of your religion's history in this country. There are many other parts. This one exists as well. It doesn't look good for you to deny that, or to say that it's irrelevant, because if most of Muslim converts were MIT graduates, we'd hear about it non-stop.
You don't need to confirm or deny it, Pew Center has done it for you.
Realistic criticism is welcome. Calling our beloved prophet a pedophile is not a realistic criticism. It's an insult. And the accusation that our prophet was a pedophile was flung early on in this thread by some. Not a good way to begin a sober discourse if people's intent is simply to understand Islamic principles, is it?
I never called your prophet a pedophile; his marital history is not a concern to me. Both Aisha and her family benefited from that marriage so if they are happy, who am I to say they shouldn't be? Aisha was Abu Bakr's daughter. Abu Bakr was one of the prophet's nearest companions and one of the rulers who came after him. Intermarriages in powerful families are common enough, and so was that marriage. I think of this as the next president offering his daughter to the current president. Common.
Was it you that also said Islam commands death for apostasy? If so, once again, you are wrong because you resort heavily on your cliff notes version of the Sharia and insist on doing so, despite my telling you that Sharia is man made law, not God's law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, rely on the Quran only and rely on reputable scholarly work to interpret it if you are confused about anything. Living with three Muslims has obviously not been enough to help clarify your misunderstanding about Islam. Why did you not contact a reutable scholar or Imam to better understand Islam then? Why get on DCUM and repeat the false and vile accusations about Islam?
Since it appears you may not have sought authoritative sources to clarify your misunderstanding about Islam, I will provide it. Hamza Yusuf is a very reputable Islamic scholar in the US. He's an American convert. Btw, he's caucasian and from a well established, wealthy Californian family…just providing this information for the DCUM marketers out there. lol lol
Hamza Yusuf may be accessible via a phone call. If you are truly interested in clarifying your misunderstanding you would call him.
This is the real part of your comment that needs to be addressed. You explained your theological position clearly. You are a Quranist, the follower of the Quran-only movement that discounts all other sources except the Quran. That's a legitimate position. You don't see Shariah as a valid source of information about Islam's views on life. That's OK. (You aren't yearning to become the next Muhammad Asad, are you? He didn't really end well, you know.)
What is not OK is your position that anyone who looks, and finds Shariah and OTHER interpretations of Islam that are less pretty than what Zaitouna's peacenik crowd preaches must be doing it from cliff's notes. My dear, you are not the first person in the world to crack open the Quran. You are not the first person to think about it. And you aren't the first person to write about it. You don't have a secret eye. The study of Islam did not begin with Hamza Yusuf, he is simply the guy you like best. Whether you like it or not, there exists a body of Islamic theological law - well yes, that's Shariah! - and scholarship underlying it that was built since Islam came on the scene. You think Shariah's illegitimate; that's OK. But for every one of you, there are millions of people, including people in turbans, who believe it is divine - are they all ignorant? Or learning from cliff's notes? (Also, I think it's cute that you get all frothy with "despite ME TELLING YOU Shariah is manmade". Who are you exactly? Why does your position on Shariah - which is markedly different from the position of the Islamic establishment - matters or is in any way authoritative?)
All these people read the Quran too. They came to conclusions that are different from you. You aren't inventing this thing from scratch. Tons and tons of books have been written on the subject; multiple schools of thoughts exist, and they have very definite position on plural marriage, on slavery, on apostasy, on treatment of polytheists that didn't come from Sheikh Google. There's Ibn Taymiyya. There's the whole Al Azhar crowd. There is a Bin Baz crowd. There's a bunch of universities named after King something. There's the mufti brigade behind islamqa.com. There's the Muhammad Abdelwahhab cooperative. There's Yusuf Qaradawi, god bless his heart. There is, somewhere, a group of turbans servicing ISIS and handing out rulings that what they do is OK. I get that you disagree with them. I get that you think they are manmade, reactionary, backwards, whatever. (I think the whole thing is manmade). But one thing that you cannot say about them is that they learned Islam from cliff's notes. They read the same Quran you do. They read it differently from you. You can disagree with their conclusions, that's your right. What you cannot do is say they aren't learned people. They are all Islamic scholars, to a man. And just like you refer people to Hamza Yusuf, I can refer people to the Bin Baz folks on islamqa.com - aren't they learned? aren't they reputable? aren't they authoritative? Isn't Qardawi? You're shopping for sources, which is perfectly fine, you found the one you like. But don't act like every OTHER source comes from ignorance because they can take up Hamza Yusuf degree by degree, and come out on top.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 12:39
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I will look for the evidence you seek regarding the numbers.
I will look forward either to your numbers or to your admission that these numbers do not exist, and the comment about Islam growing by conversion more than immigration in the U.S. is your theory unsupported by evidence.
Meanwhile, why devote so much to explaining that some percentage of Islam includes ghetto or African Americans? WTH? Why is the color of their skin or economic status noteworthy in discussing population numbers? Regardless of color of skin and economic status, they COUNT. Moreover, Islam does not care about the color of anyone's skin or economic status.
Because when a new concept or product makes inroads in the market, the sponsors of this concept of products usually pay attention to the demographics of their customers. Let's flip this around. If the majority of the Muslim converts in the U.S. were Harvard graduates, I would bet my firstborn that this fact will be present in every single piece of dawa literature CAIR hands out. So it seems equally legitimate to present the analysis of the real population of American Muslims and to note where most of them come from. These are the forgotten Muslims whose voice has never been included in the political Muslim discourse - simply because this population doesn't have the wherewithal to become political. But they are Muslims nevertheless, and they have specific needs and challenges. It isn't becoming of you to insist that they a)don't exist, or b) are Muslims like any other. The challenges faced by this population are very different from those faced by immigrant Muslims. Yet Muslim discourse in America is shaped by wealthy immigrant Muslims.
Islam may not care about anyone's skin color or economic status. But Muslims do.
People from France to African Americans are converting and in God's eyes their devotion is equal. Perhaps this is why so many African Americans do convert to Islam- they feel welcomed in Islam.
African-Americans convert to Islam for many reasons. If you want to talk about that population intelligently, do a bit of reading and progress to beyond "perhaps." They aren't like you. Their problems are not like your problems.
However, what I described to you in previous pages was the face of the new Muslim. The new Muslim will be a blend of mixed races. And every successive generation will be more wealthy. Iranian Muslims, Arab Muslims, and Pakistan Muslims that are first generation are fairly wealthy and well educated. This pattern will continue. You would never recognize my kids as " Muslim" if you saw them. This is the new face of Islam. But the new generation is not losing their faith in the process of assimilation.
In the U.S., they are, because the U.S. enforces education and income barriers to entry. In Europe, not so. These Muslims aren't wealthy or educated.
I should also mention, for reality's sake, that Iranian Muslims are a separate population with whom mainstream Sunni Islam seeks no particular affiliation. You can spin your tales of Muslim unity when you succeed in eradicating the term "rafidah" from the Sunni discourse.
Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's..
Oh dear. There are three Muslims in my house already. There is a certainly-Muslim child growing in my womb. You don't frighten me with Muslim anything. I lived among them all my life. I know Muslim reality, both here and elsewhere. The Muslim reality in the U.S. is this:
- the prediction of Muslims in every block, if not in every house, is not supported by demographic evidence, unless your definition of "soon" differs from most people mean. If you brought numbers to show the forecast of Muslim population in the U.S, that'd be different. But all you brought is your own passion. Very nice, eh, but unconvincing.
Realistic criticism of your religion is not an insult, unless you a sort of Muslim to whom everyone who doesn't like Islam is an offender.
It's not an insult to say many Muslim-Americans hail from the ghetto. They do. That's their economic and demographic reality. If you don't like the word ghetto, how about this: many Muslim-Americans are black, poor, have below-high school education and often a prison record. They are also ignored by wealthy immigrant Muslims who think their voices are enough to shape Muslim discourse in America.
Polite enough for you?
Aaaahhh, so you pointed out that many Muslims are African American and from ghettos to provide valuable demographic and marketing information in case DCUMers wish to market products to them? People are chuckling right now, particularly the African Americans and those from ghettos. I never mentioned the race or economic status of converts because it's irrelevant. No matter how dark their complexion or fat their wallets, they still count as converts. In fact, I actually can not confirm or deny your assertion that most converts are African American or from ghettos as it was never importnat enough a factor for me, as a Muslim, to research or learn about.
Realistic criticism is welcome. Calling our beloved prophet a pedophile is not a realistic criticism. It's an insult. And the accusation that our prophet was a pedophile was flung early on in this thread by some. Not a good way to begin a sober discourse if people's intent is simply to understand Islamic principles, is it?
Was it you that also said Islam commands death for apostasy? If so, once again, you are wrong because you resort heavily on your cliff notes version of the Sharia and insist on doing so, despite my telling you that Sharia is man made law, not God's law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, rely on the Quran only and rely on reputable scholarly work to interpret it if you are confused about anything. Living with three Muslims has obviously not been enough to help clarify your misunderstanding about Islam. Why did you not contact a reutable scholar or Imam to better understand Islam then? Why get on DCUM and repeat the false and vile accusations about Islam?
Since it appears you may not have sought authoritative sources to clarify your misunderstanding about Islam, I will provide it. Hamza Yusuf is a very reputable Islamic scholar in the US. He's an American convert. Btw, he's caucasian and from a well established, wealthy Californian family…just providing this information for the DCUM marketers out there. lol lol
Hamza Yusuf may be accessible via a phone call. If you are truly interested in clarifying your misunderstanding you would call him. Here is his bio:
"He is one of the leading proponents of classical learning in Islam. He has promoted Islamic sciences and classical teaching methodologies throughout the world. He has also been a strong advocate for social justice, peace, and conviviality among peoples and places. For several years, he has argued that the "them versus us" problem is fundamentally flawed, as he considers himself one of "them" as well as one of "us."Hamza Yusuf is a cofounder of Zaytuna College, located in Berkeley, California. He is an advisor to Stanford University's Program in Islamic Studies and the Center for Islamic Studies at Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union. He also serves as a member of the board of advisors of George Russell's One Nation, a national philanthropic initiative that promotes pluralism and inclusion in America. In addition, he serves as vice-president for the Global Center for Guidance and Renewal, which was founded and is currently presided over by Shaykh Abdallah bin Bayyah, one of the top jurists and masters of Islamic sciences in the world. Recently, Hamza Yusuf was ranked as "the Western world's most influential Islamic scholar" by The 500 Most Influential Muslims, edited by John Esposito and Ibrahim Kalin, (2009).
Hamza Yusuf is one of the leading proponents of classical learning in Islam. He has promoted Islamic sciences and classical teaching methodologies throughout the world. He has also been a strong advocate for social justice, peace, and conviviality among peoples and places. For several years, he has argued that the "them versus us" problem is fundamentally flawed, as he considers himself one of "them" as well as one of "us"."
Here is a link to Humza Yusuf explaining how true Islam handles apostasy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naEj915VU20
Let me know if anyone has problems with this link.
You often hear lukewarm and moderate Muslims saying that fundamentalists, Wahhabists and Islamists do not represent true Islam. They are lying. It is the moderates who are not following true Islam.
In Sura 4:88-89 Allah tells the prophet how to deal with these particular hypocrites.
4:88-89 Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance) 89 They wish that you reject (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So, take not Auliya (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold of) them and kill [q-t-l] them wherever you find them . . . . (Al-Hilali and Khan, parenthetical insertions are theirs; mine in brackets)
(4) As the final example from Bukhari’s collection, this hadith promises a reward on the Day of Resurrection for killing apostates in the last days:
. . . No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection." (Bukhari)
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:48
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's...
Proof? Source? Link? ANYTHING to show this isn't just the product of your feverish imagination?
Remember that Muslims are not trying to conquer the world, it just represents the growth rate of Muslims across the world:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/11/islam-population
Interesting. Unfortunately, this link doesn't mention conversions at all. It does mention large-scale Muslim immigration from places like Pakistan and Bangladesh. It also seems to imply that Muslim birthrates are higher than those of other groups, which I find highly probable.
Notably, the article says, "The Pew findings demonstrate that fear of a Muslim takeover was largely the product of hysteria."
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:43
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's...
Proof? Source? Link? ANYTHING to show this isn't just the product of your feverish imagination?
Remember that Muslims are not trying to conquer the world, it just represents the growth rate of Muslims across the world:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/11/islam-population
Muslims have a basic obligation to give dawah to non-Muslims, meaning inviting them to Islam. Quran 16: "Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good preaching." The fact that the Muslim PP would deny this verges on the absurd.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:35
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's...
Proof? Source? Link? ANYTHING to show this isn't just the product of your feverish imagination?
Remember that Muslims are not trying to conquer the world, it just represents the growth rate of Muslims across the world:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/feb/11/islam-population
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:35
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:And now, fellow Islam-haters, I take a break from "proselytizing" to get back to life. Who knew prosleytizing could be such hard work.
I will provide more accurate numbers on conversion at some point in the future.
Fellow DCUMers, I hope that if you ever wish to truly understand Islam, that you will never begin a discourse with an accusation that Muhammad was a pedophile.
Remember also that the Sharia is sadly very flawed and has oppressed women and infringed upon their rights. It is man made law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, when you see terrible stories of women being oppressed and justified by the Sharia, know this - that it is not true Islam. So much of the Sharia in other countries is polluted with old and oppressive cultural traditions of patriarchy and this has NOTHING to do with true Islam. If you are in any doubt, call a scholar. They are accessible! The best American Islamic scholar is Hamza Yusuf in California. He's an American convert. Google him and read the books he has written. Take the initiative to call him also. This is the only way to learn about true Islam.
Anybody else notice how Muslims are always talking about, "my friend, the white convert, who told me that the most beautiful part of Islam is...?" It really does smack of immaturity and insecurity. I've heard this formulation many times. Sadly for the speakers, it never, ever, makes me think, "huh, another white person converted, so I should too!"
As this thread has demonstrated a million times over, asking a Muslim about Islam is the narrow road to ignorance and misconceptions about the religion. Instead, ask a professor, preferably a secular professor. Read widely. Some of the sources are clearly paranoid Islamaphobes, but you do need to find places to learn the things that will never be mentioned by Muslims hoping to convert you.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:27
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Oh for heaven's sake. We all know that there is just one poster--a single poster--who called Mohammed a pedophile. S/he probably did that fewer times than you besmirched Mary. You really need to get over that. It's obvious to everybody here that your real problem is with all the corrections people have made to Muslima's flowery but deceptive language. Which is odd, because these corrections have been nothing more than pointing out actual Islamic laws. Do you really think that spelling out Islam's rules is hateful and vile?
Rather than reading somebody's apologetics for the apostasy rules, let's go straight to the Quran. The Quran is the actual word of God and cannot be changed.
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God. Then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
There are several more Quranic passages about killing apostates, but that's probably sufficient to make the point.
Rather than reading somebody's apologetics for the apostasy rules, let's go straight to the Quran. The Quran is the actual word of God and cannot be changed.
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God. Then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
There are several more Quranic passages about killing apostates, but that's probably sufficient to make the point.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:27
Subject: Tell me about Islam
And now, fellow Islam-haters, I take a break from "proselytizing" to get back to life. Who knew prosleytizing could be such hard work.
I will provide more accurate numbers on conversion at some point in the future.
Fellow DCUMers, I hope that if you ever wish to truly understand Islam, that you will never begin a discourse with an accusation that Muhammad was a pedophile.
Remember also that the Sharia is sadly very flawed and has oppressed women and infringed upon their rights. It is man made law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, when you see terrible stories of women being oppressed and justified by the Sharia, know this - that it is not true Islam. So much of the Sharia in other countries is polluted with old and oppressive cultural traditions of patriarchy and this has NOTHING to do with true Islam. If you are in any doubt, call a scholar. They are accessible! The best American Islamic scholar is Hamza Yusuf in California. He's an American convert. Google him and read the books he has written. Take the initiative to call him also. This is the only way to learn about true Islam.
I will provide more accurate numbers on conversion at some point in the future.
Fellow DCUMers, I hope that if you ever wish to truly understand Islam, that you will never begin a discourse with an accusation that Muhammad was a pedophile.
Remember also that the Sharia is sadly very flawed and has oppressed women and infringed upon their rights. It is man made law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, when you see terrible stories of women being oppressed and justified by the Sharia, know this - that it is not true Islam. So much of the Sharia in other countries is polluted with old and oppressive cultural traditions of patriarchy and this has NOTHING to do with true Islam. If you are in any doubt, call a scholar. They are accessible! The best American Islamic scholar is Hamza Yusuf in California. He's an American convert. Google him and read the books he has written. Take the initiative to call him also. This is the only way to learn about true Islam.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:19
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This sounds like your fantasy more than any possible reality.
Also, why did you assume PP's reference to African American converts was somehow pejorative? I didn't read it that way. This seems to be your problem, not hers.
Also, ghettos not ghetto's.
So why mention it? And why mention ghettos? Just lunchtime table convo?
If you are allowed to say many first gen Muslims are wealthy, then it is perfectly fine for me to say many native Muslims in America are not.
Hon, you brought up the fact that they were from ghettos. I refuted this stereotype by then saying, maybe so, I can't confirm or deny that, but many are also wealthy. Your ghetto comment came first.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:15
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:
I will look for the evidence you seek regarding the numbers.
I will look forward either to your numbers or to your admission that these numbers do not exist, and the comment about Islam growing by conversion more than immigration in the U.S. is your theory unsupported by evidence.
Meanwhile, why devote so much to explaining that some percentage of Islam includes ghetto or African Americans? WTH? Why is the color of their skin or economic status noteworthy in discussing population numbers? Regardless of color of skin and economic status, they COUNT. Moreover, Islam does not care about the color of anyone's skin or economic status.
Because when a new concept or product makes inroads in the market, the sponsors of this concept of products usually pay attention to the demographics of their customers. Let's flip this around. If the majority of the Muslim converts in the U.S. were Harvard graduates, I would bet my firstborn that this fact will be present in every single piece of dawa literature CAIR hands out. So it seems equally legitimate to present the analysis of the real population of American Muslims and to note where most of them come from. These are the forgotten Muslims whose voice has never been included in the political Muslim discourse - simply because this population doesn't have the wherewithal to become political. But they are Muslims nevertheless, and they have specific needs and challenges. It isn't becoming of you to insist that they a)don't exist, or b) are Muslims like any other. The challenges faced by this population are very different from those faced by immigrant Muslims. Yet Muslim discourse in America is shaped by wealthy immigrant Muslims.
Islam may not care about anyone's skin color or economic status. But Muslims do.
People from France to African Americans are converting and in God's eyes their devotion is equal. Perhaps this is why so many African Americans do convert to Islam- they feel welcomed in Islam.
African-Americans convert to Islam for many reasons. If you want to talk about that population intelligently, do a bit of reading and progress to beyond "perhaps." They aren't like you. Their problems are not like your problems.
However, what I described to you in previous pages was the face of the new Muslim. The new Muslim will be a blend of mixed races. And every successive generation will be more wealthy. Iranian Muslims, Arab Muslims, and Pakistan Muslims that are first generation are fairly wealthy and well educated. This pattern will continue. You would never recognize my kids as " Muslim" if you saw them. This is the new face of Islam. But the new generation is not losing their faith in the process of assimilation.
In the U.S., they are, because the U.S. enforces education and income barriers to entry. In Europe, not so. These Muslims aren't wealthy or educated.
I should also mention, for reality's sake, that Iranian Muslims are a separate population with whom mainstream Sunni Islam seeks no particular affiliation. You can spin your tales of Muslim unity when you succeed in eradicating the term "rafidah" from the Sunni discourse.
Soon there will be a Muslim on every block if not in every house. Everyone will know at least one Muslim. I am not trying to frighten you with this prediction; its simply the direction we are headed in. So its not wise to alienate such a large population by insults about our religion or references to people in our faith who live in ghetto's..
Oh dear. There are three Muslims in my house already. There is a certainly-Muslim child growing in my womb. You don't frighten me with Muslim anything. I lived among them all my life. I know Muslim reality, both here and elsewhere. The Muslim reality in the U.S. is this:
- the prediction of Muslims in every block, if not in every house, is not supported by demographic evidence, unless your definition of "soon" differs from most people mean. If you brought numbers to show the forecast of Muslim population in the U.S, that'd be different. But all you brought is your own passion. Very nice, eh, but unconvincing.
Realistic criticism of your religion is not an insult, unless you a sort of Muslim to whom everyone who doesn't like Islam is an offender.
It's not an insult to say many Muslim-Americans hail from the ghetto. They do. That's their economic and demographic reality. If you don't like the word ghetto, how about this: many Muslim-Americans are black, poor, have below-high school education and often a prison record. They are also ignored by wealthy immigrant Muslims who think their voices are enough to shape Muslim discourse in America.
Polite enough for you?
Aaaahhh, so you pointed out that many Muslims are African American and from ghettos to provide valuable demographic and marketing information in case DCUMers wish to market products to them? People are chuckling right now, particularly the African Americans and those from ghettos. I never mentioned the race or economic status of converts because it's irrelevant. No matter how dark their complexion or fat their wallets, they still count as converts. In fact, I actually can not confirm or deny your assertion that most converts are African American or from ghettos as it was never importnat enough a factor for me, as a Muslim, to research or learn about.
Realistic criticism is welcome. Calling our beloved prophet a pedophile is not a realistic criticism. It's an insult. And the accusation that our prophet was a pedophile was flung early on in this thread by some. Not a good way to begin a sober discourse if people's intent is simply to understand Islamic principles, is it?
Was it you that also said Islam commands death for apostasy? If so, once again, you are wrong because you resort heavily on your cliff notes version of the Sharia and insist on doing so, despite my telling you that Sharia is man made law, not God's law. Only the Quran is God's law. Thus, rely on the Quran only and rely on reputable scholarly work to interpret it if you are confused about anything. Living with three Muslims has obviously not been enough to help clarify your misunderstanding about Islam. Why did you not contact a reutable scholar or Imam to better understand Islam then? Why get on DCUM and repeat the false and vile accusations about Islam?
Since it appears you may not have sought authoritative sources to clarify your misunderstanding about Islam, I will provide it. Hamza Yusuf is a very reputable Islamic scholar in the US. He's an American convert. Btw, he's caucasian and from a well established, wealthy Californian family…just providing this information for the DCUM marketers out there. lol lol
Hamza Yusuf may be accessible via a phone call. If you are truly interested in clarifying your misunderstanding you would call him. Here is his bio:
"He is one of the leading proponents of classical learning in Islam. He has promoted Islamic sciences and classical teaching methodologies throughout the world. He has also been a strong advocate for social justice, peace, and conviviality among peoples and places. For several years, he has argued that the "them versus us" problem is fundamentally flawed, as he considers himself one of "them" as well as one of "us."Hamza Yusuf is a cofounder of Zaytuna College, located in Berkeley, California. He is an advisor to Stanford University's Program in Islamic Studies and the Center for Islamic Studies at Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union. He also serves as a member of the board of advisors of George Russell's One Nation, a national philanthropic initiative that promotes pluralism and inclusion in America. In addition, he serves as vice-president for the Global Center for Guidance and Renewal, which was founded and is currently presided over by Shaykh Abdallah bin Bayyah, one of the top jurists and masters of Islamic sciences in the world. Recently, Hamza Yusuf was ranked as "the Western world's most influential Islamic scholar" by The 500 Most Influential Muslims, edited by John Esposito and Ibrahim Kalin, (2009).
Hamza Yusuf is one of the leading proponents of classical learning in Islam. He has promoted Islamic sciences and classical teaching methodologies throughout the world. He has also been a strong advocate for social justice, peace, and conviviality among peoples and places. For several years, he has argued that the "them versus us" problem is fundamentally flawed, as he considers himself one of "them" as well as one of "us"."
Here is a link to Humza Yusuf explaining how true Islam handles apostasy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naEj915VU20
Let me know if anyone has problems with this link.
Anonymous
09/04/2014 11:10
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I have heard of Christian missionary groups but I have never heard of Muslim missionary groups, have you? I worked with refugee Muslim families and they told me about Christian missionary groups on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are impoverished Muslim families and the familes tell me that Christian missionary groups sweep in, providing baskets of food and water but also quite a few brochures on "Jesus, our Savior." lol Honestly, Muslims NEVER want people to convert under compulsion or coercion. It has to be through revelation and divine guidance. Muslima was speaking in "flowery" terms not because she was proselytizing, but simply because she clearly is devoted and loves her faith. Nothing wrong with that! It just irritated the hell out of you that she spoke so positively about her faith, thats all.
I think Muslima and I have been informative and answered questions to the best of our ability. I think we've done a fine job. I'm glad that now this thread will permanently remain with links included for people to learn more about true Islam. My intention was never to convert anyone, but simply to remove some of the hatred and vile accusations against a religion that is dear to billions of people.
It apparently irritates the hell out of you that we aren't convinced by all the flowery language from you and Muslima, instead we want actual truth.
We all know that there is just one poster--a single poster--who called Mohammed a pedophile. S/he probably did that fewer times than you besmirched Mary.
So, obviously, your real problem is with all the corrections people have made to Muslima's flowery but deceptive language. Which is odd, because these corrections are nothing more than to point out rules that actually exist in Islam.
Do you really think that spelling out Islam's rules is hateful and vile?
Anonymous
09/04/2014 10:57
Subject: Tell me about Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This sounds like your fantasy more than any possible reality.
Also, why did you assume PP's reference to African American converts was somehow pejorative? I didn't read it that way. This seems to be your problem, not hers.
Also, ghettos not ghetto's.
So why mention it? And why mention ghettos? Just lunchtime table convo?
If you are allowed to say many first gen Muslims are wealthy, then it is perfectly fine for me to say many native Muslims in America are not.