Anonymous wrote:Princeton is ranked No 1 on uSNWR pp and has been for several years

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Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

"scourge"??? You must really be bitter about getting hosed back in the day. Given how much fun you seem, you probably would have gotten rejected from whatever selective organization -- finals club, fraternity/sorority, etc -- you would have tried to join if you happened to attend somewhere else. If you had simply signed into Charter, everything could have worked out fine.

Plus, even if you were right that Princeton is somehow falling behind its peers, it is quite a stretch to say that Princeton's demise is the result of selective eating clubs.

NP. Princeton has the highest acceptance rate of the HYPC Ivies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

"scourge"??? You must really be bitter about getting hosed back in the day. Given how much fun you seem, you probably would have gotten rejected from whatever selective organization -- finals club, fraternity/sorority, etc -- you would have tried to join if you happened to attend somewhere else. If you had simply signed into Charter, everything could have worked out fine.

Plus, even if you were right that Princeton is somehow falling behind its peers, it is quite a stretch to say that Princeton's demise is the result of selective eating clubs.

Anonymous wrote:My argument isn't absurd at all. It's both common sense and consistent with the clear preference that dual admits have for Harvard and Yale over Princeton as well as the greater number of applications that Columbia and several other Ivies also receive. The selective eating clubs are a scourge that reinforce the school's country-club reputation. They'd be long gone but for the older alumni who'd cease to donate if the administration did away with Bicker.

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Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.

As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact. They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.

However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA. Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state. And the number from the Deep South was very small. I can't imagine that's changed.

The eating clubs that you mention are quite different from each other and lumping them together is a mistake. They have very different types of members and very different ways to choose members. I was a member of one of the clubs you denigrate. Our rush (we called it "bicker") process was totally devoid of hazing of any kind and was simply meant as a way to meet people. Our rush process produced a fairly diverse club in terms of race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic background. We also took everyone we could fit -- we didn't artificially reject people to be exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is very different from some of the other clubs where the bicker process is more questionable and it produces a more homogeneous group of members.

Let's say 120 people apply and the club can fit 100. What are the alternatives? You either have some sort of selection process or you just do a lottery. I can understand why some people prefer a lottery -- and if you don't want to bicker -- the other half of the clubs do use a lottery. But, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a selection process and such a process happens in many other aspects of society.

And, as an aside, Harvard and Yale actually have more of a secret society element on campus. There numbers are (pretty much by definition) smaller, but there you don't have an option of "non-selective" clubs which you do at Princeton.

You are splitting hairs. For a lot of prospective students, the idea of working hard enough in high school to get into Princeton and then still having to prove oneself socially by "bickering" at eating clubs that may turn you away is a real turn-off. Even if you don't bicker, just knowing that a large number of your classmates are comfortable with that system is quite off-putting. And the fact that some clubs, like yours, don't attract as much interest doesn't really change the analysis.

The four-year residential colleges at Yale are much more inclusive. Princeton will never truly be able to compete with Harvard and Yale until the selective eating clubs are disbanded.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Princeton was historically the finishing school of the slave-owning, southern elites. Just saying.

As long as Princeton tolerates its remaining selective eating clubs (e.g., Cottage, Ivy, Cap & Gown, Tiger and Tower), its reputation for social exclusivity will remain intact. They shape the perception of Princeton in a way that the final clubs and secret societies do not at Harvard or Yale.

However, when I went there over 30 years ago, the number of students from the South was quite small in comparison to the number from NY, NJ, CT, PA, IL and CA. Most of the kids from VA were from NoVa or Richmond, with just a handful from other parts of the state. And the number from the Deep South was very small. I can't imagine that's changed.

The eating clubs that you mention are quite different from each other and lumping them together is a mistake. They have very different types of members and very different ways to choose members. I was a member of one of the clubs you denigrate. Our rush (we called it "bicker") process was totally devoid of hazing of any kind and was simply meant as a way to meet people. Our rush process produced a fairly diverse club in terms of race, sexual orientation, and socio-economic background. We also took everyone we could fit -- we didn't artificially reject people to be exclusive for the sake of exclusivity. This is very different from some of the other clubs where the bicker process is more questionable and it produces a more homogeneous group of members.

Let's say 120 people apply and the club can fit 100. What are the alternatives? You either have some sort of selection process or you just do a lottery. I can understand why some people prefer a lottery -- and if you don't want to bicker -- the other half of the clubs do use a lottery. But, there is nothing inherently wrong with having a selection process and such a process happens in many other aspects of society.

And, as an aside, Harvard and Yale actually have more of a secret society element on campus. There numbers are (pretty much by definition) smaller, but there you don't have an option of "non-selective" clubs which you do at Princeton.

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Why don't they understand that it's BECAUSE of your family legacy there that he doesn't want to go? There will be siblings or cousins who will go, so no worries, his generation of the family will be represented there.

I would encourage him to branch out.

But then I suspect that the reason you're all pressuring him is that you're afraid he won't get into an Ivy without his legacy status

OP here. This is not why at all. He intends to apply to places like HYS, other ivies etc anyway. He is a very competitive and accomplished kid in his own right, near the very top of his class. However, he hasn't won an international award or something super extraordinary to guarantee him admission at HYS. At Princeton our legacy status differentiates him from other similarly qualified kids. The other reason the family is pressuring him is that they want him to carry on the tradition, which I understand sounds outlandish to most. You need to understand that a family with such a long tradition in a specific school eventually develops a kind of warped perception of reality. For most of my family members it is as if there was no other college in the world other than Princeton.

I think the Dutch do during the World Cup

For you non-tigers, it's hard to appreciate the cult that Princeton is, even for non-legacies. Insulated campus, cheers and songs of old Nassau, bicker and the eating clubs and for the love of all that is holy, reunions. I mean does anyone else wear this much orange? Even Miami or Florida or UVA tone it down.