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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Israel has a right to exist just like apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany. [/quote]

This.

Frankly I don't care about the mere name of a country. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, call it Semiticstan, or whatever. But if you're telling me that a country (whatever you want to call it) has a right to operate an ethno-nationalist state that displaces those who don't qualify, and has different rules and laws for those who don't happen to meet the requirements of an ethno-nationalist state, then I think you are not only part of the problem, but that you're an awful human being.

A democratic state that provides equal laws, rights, opportunities and protections for all? Call it Israel, and it'd be great. But that's not what Israel is now, nor what it was created as. And I have no problem saying that Israel in it's current form should never, ever have been created and should absolutely be destroyed. [/quote]
Your description could be applied to most of the countries in the Middle East.

They are almost all ethno nationalist countries that long ago ethnically cleansed their Jews. Some of them still have actual slaves, with an estimated 1.7 million slaves in the region. Last I checked slavery was worse than apartheid.

By your logic they should all cease to exist and be destroyed.

If the Palestinian leadership had their way they’d drive off the Israelis too and form their own ethno nationalist state. In the process they’d likely kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews.

Is this the solution we’re looking for?[/quote]

Oh of course much of the MidEast is royally messed up. The way many of those countries treat non-Arabs is horrific. They may, in fact, treat a Jew better than they would a Muslim from Pakistan. . I think of Saudi and Israel as two sides of the same amoral coin. But two wrongs don't make a right, and Israel is making it very clear that they are fiercely competing for the price of the most horrific and inhuman place in the Middle East. 
[/quote]
You're avoiding the second point I'm making.  If the Palestinian leadership had their way, they'd destroy Israel and form their own ethno nationalist state out of the smoldering remains.

What are we supposed to do with that?  Sure, let's try to stop the killing in Gaza, but does killing hundreds of thousands or millions of Jews make the world a better place?  That's what it sounds like when you argue for the destruction of Israel.[/quote]

Massive, seismic, actual democratic reform - that’s what I’m hoping for.

I agree with my sock puppet (🙄) to the point that Israel should never have been established (including for the reason that the more noble act would have been to ensure that Jewish people were able to live safely anywhere), but that horse is outta the barn and I think the only realistic goal now is to force the massive structural reform approach.[/quote]
What do you mean by democratic reform.  Are you talking about the one state solution? The mythical democratic, secular, one state solution?  I'd have better luck winning the lottery.  The two sides can't even trust each other enough to agree on a two state solution.  How is this mythical one state solution supposed to work?

You can live beside someone you hate.  India and Pakistan are examples of this.  Turkey and Greece are examples of this.  Push them together though and it inevitably leads to civil war.  It's like the difference between living with a neighbor and a roommate.  You can tolerate a bad neighbor sometimes.  Almost nobody tolerates a bad roommate.

People seem to forget these two sides hate and/or fear each other.  There isn't even a leader on either side that wants this.  But sure, keep arguing for the destruction of Israel.  Why are you even using those words?  Just use the words "democratic reform."  If you ever want this to work you need the Israelis to be on board, and antagonizing them with the wrong language doesn't seem like a winning tactic.[/quote]

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