I'm not from this country. Would you please explain to me WHY taking Algn 7th grade seems to be the

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

7th Grade Algebra, hell 6th grade Algebra, is important to people on the AAP forum. If you read the FCPS Forum, most parents think that the parents on this forum are bat shit crazy and put a ton of unnecessary pressure on their kids to perform in math.

Most kids in FCPS, and surrounding counties, will take Algebra in 8th or 9th grade. A small percentage of kids will take Algebra in 7th grade and an even smaller group will take it in 6th. The only kids in FCPS that are eligible for 7th grade Algebra are the kids who are in Advanced Math or Level IV classes, that is about 20% of the sixth grade population. The kids in Advanced Math or Level IV classes will take a test called the IAAT and need to score in the 91rst percentile in order to be considered for Algebra in 7th grade. I believe they also need to pass Advanced on the math SOL for that year. This works out to, and this is a guess, about 50% of the kids in Advanced Math or Level IV classes.

This tells me that maybe 10% of the 7th grade population is taking Algebra.

There are parents on this forum who strongly believe that math is not talk quickly enough and well enough in the US so they focus on math outside the home to make sure their child is challenged in Math.

Truth in advertising. My kid is in 4th grade and took math classes through AoPS last year and will be in RSM this year. He enjoys math and the math at school is not challenging for him. We are supplementing his math because we want him to remain engaged in math. I was a kid who was always behind in math and struggled with math in school. I was one of the ones who took Algebra in 9th grade and never took Calculus. I see math, and a lot of other subjects, as something that some kids are going to be stronger in and more interested in then others. Math tends to stand out because many adults find the subject matter intimidating (raises her hand) so seeing kids surge ahead in math is more surprising then a kid surging ahead in English or History or some other subject.

There are kids who are capable of taking more advanced math classes earlier and I am glad that the path exists for those kids. The vast majority follow what I suspect is the more traditional path, even in other countries, where Algebra is taught around 8th or 9th grade. But the parents in this forum tend to have kids who are advanced and so there is more emphasis on how to help them continue to grow and be challenged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

NP. Do Russia and Poland also have students take Calculus in 11th grade and Multivar or another college level class as a senior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

NP. Do Russia and Poland also have students take Calculus in 11th grade and Multivar or another college level class as a senior?

Yes, the core beginning ideas of calculus (e.g limits, function end behavior) are taught before senior year, somewhere around 10-11th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

NP. Do Russia and Poland also have students take Calculus in 11th grade and Multivar or another college level class as a senior?

Yes, the core beginning ideas of calculus (e.g limits, function end behavior) are taught before senior year, somewhere around 10-11th grade.

That's not the same as taking Multivar or Diff Eq in high school.

[Anonymous]

OP, for a lot of kids (or their parents) in AAP, an 'end goal' so to speak, was getting into TJ. Which pretty much required the kids to do Algebra I in 7th grade, instead of Math 7H.

I have already told my 6th grader that I don't care if she gets into Algebra I in 7th grade. I know that she is more than capable of the work, but I'd rather she repeat 6th grade math (plus some additional work, which is what Math 7H is) and be solid in her foundations, rather than rush around and have shallow understanding of that material. I will help her prepare for the IAAT however, because she's never taken a timed test in her life, and the very idea terrifies her (she takes time adjusting to new things). I'll teach her not to fear the timer. The rest is up to her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

Are all of the kids starting Algebra in 7th grade or is it a higher percentage of kids?

I know that there are countries that use more strict tracking then we do in the US and so that you end up with a group of kids that are put on a more advanced path while others are sent on a more vo-tech path starting in Elementary School. People point to how many STEM based students there are in China without looking at the percentage of kids in China who are studying STEM. The number of grads is going to be higher because there is a massive population difference but the percentage is not as stark.

For example "Chinese universities graduated 34,801 STEM doctorates compared to 26,076 by American universities. Over the last decade, China has steadily increased its lead. In 2019, Chinese universities produced 49,498 PhDs in STEM fields, while U.S. universities produced 33,759" So there are more Chinese PhDs but when you take into consideration the substantial population size differences, not that much of a gap.

I know that kids in rural China are not getting the same education as the kid in Beijing and that the kids of the wealthy parents in Beijing are receiving a very different education then the other kids. This idea that all kids in these countries are on this advanced path and the US is far behind is over inflated. In many countries, the kids who are this advanced path are the kids of families that can afford the tutoring and prep classes that allow their kids to do well in school and well in the exams that are used to select kids for the top tier high schools and universities in their respective countries. Kids who do not make the cut take different classes and are on different paths.

I would guess that the same is true in Russia and other systems.

The people that many Americans are interacting with are the ones who excelled and are representing their countries or excelled but didn't pass the test to attend the top tier school in their country so they came to the US to complete their education or the people who worked their butts off and are not recognized and came to the US in order to improve their lives. Not surprisingly, many of these folks were surrounded by other families who emphasized STEM and prep and tutoring to excel so that is the tradition that they bring with them. But we are not seeing the kids who were tracked into a different path in elementary school and we are not seeing the kids who are from rural parts of the world that are in a very different system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

S. Korea also teaches algebra in 6th grades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. It is ridiculous. Most of the kids have a weak understanding of Algebra as a result. It's rushed, almost always badly done, and largely has to do with parental bragging.

If that is true*, it's more of a reflection of the sub-par teaching and math curriculum from K-6. In some other countries, it's pretty standard for everyone to take Algebra in 7th.

*It's not true. Some person keeps claiming that the kids who are accelerated more perform worse in subsequent math classes, but this person has no evidence. At least in LCPS, the kids taking Algebra in 6th outperform the other kids in all math classes.

In specifically what countries is it standard for EVERYONE to take Algebra in 7th?

Russia, for one. It's standard in grade 7 for kids to do integrated Algebra and Geometry.
https://www.emis.de/data/projects/reference-levels/EMS_RUSSIA.pdf

Poland also teaches Algebra earlier than the US.

Are all of the kids starting Algebra in 7th grade or is it a higher percentage of kids?

I know that there are countries that use more strict tracking then we do in the US and so that you end up with a group of kids that are put on a more advanced path while others are sent on a more vo-tech path starting in Elementary School. People point to how many STEM based students there are in China without looking at the percentage of kids in China who are studying STEM. The number of grads is going to be higher because there is a massive population difference but the percentage is not as stark.

For example "Chinese universities graduated 34,801 STEM doctorates compared to 26,076 by American universities. Over the last decade, China has steadily increased its lead. In 2019, Chinese universities produced 49,498 PhDs in STEM fields, while U.S. universities produced 33,759" So there are more Chinese PhDs but when you take into consideration the substantial population size differences, not that much of a gap.

I know that kids in rural China are not getting the same education as the kid in Beijing and that the kids of the wealthy parents in Beijing are receiving a very different education then the other kids. This idea that all kids in these countries are on this advanced path and the US is far behind is over inflated. In many countries, the kids who are this advanced path are the kids of families that can afford the tutoring and prep classes that allow their kids to do well in school and well in the exams that are used to select kids for the top tier high schools and universities in their respective countries. Kids who do not make the cut take different classes and are on different paths.

I would guess that the same is true in Russia and other systems.

The people that many Americans are interacting with are the ones who excelled and are representing their countries or excelled but didn't pass the test to attend the top tier school in their country so they came to the US to complete their education or the people who worked their butts off and are not recognized and came to the US in order to improve their lives. Not surprisingly, many of these folks were surrounded by other families who emphasized STEM and prep and tutoring to excel so that is the tradition that they bring with them. But we are not seeing the kids who were tracked into a different path in elementary school and we are not seeing the kids who are from rural parts of the world that are in a very different system.

Stop making lame excuses.

[Anonymous]

I am not. Exactly what percentage of Russians and South Koreans and Poles and Chinese are taking Algebra in 6th and 7th grade? I doubt that the number is as high as you all think. The elite and people who can afford the tutoring and prep are pushing STEM in many countries. This is not a wide spread thing and if you think that it is, I have a bridge to sell you for a low, low price.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually teach a college STEM subject at Mason.

Here is my 10,000 foot view and what we tend to see. Even with AP calc or post-calc courses, many, many of our students are repeating calc and other courses like linear alg. because their foundations aren't strong enough. I'd say, these students tend to do well repeating because it's another pass on the material and reinforces what they already know. For the students who take the credit and move up, I've seen them struggle, but they do complete their programs. You tend to see more C's in things like material science & engineering courses and physics but they do finish and end up employed fwiw. The kids who are repeating tend to get higher grades (based on the students I have counseled/mentored for 10 years or so).

How do the kids retaking Calc perform compared to kids taking Calc for the first time in college? It seems to me that the advantage of taking AP Calc, perhaps AP Stats, and post-AP classes is not the ability to skip them but rather to have a quasi review, easyish A in coursework that would otherwise be a weed out class. I'd hate to be the kid seeing the material in BC Calc or Linear Algebra for the first time in a class filled with kids who already somewhat know the material.

If having good foundations is important, wouldn't passing through calculus and linear algebra twice be the most helpful? Kids would learn the material more superficially in high school, and then really dial the material in when they take the college classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not. Exactly what percentage of Russians and South Koreans and Poles and Chinese are taking Algebra in 6th and 7th grade? I doubt that the number is as high as you all think. The elite and people who can afford the tutoring and prep are pushing STEM in many countries. This is not a wide spread thing and if you think that it is, I have a bridge to sell you for a low, low price.

There's probably a higher percentage than you might imagine. If math is emphasized in the curriculum and taught correctly, with a focus toward problem solving and true understanding, there's no reason why kids wouldn't generally be ready for Algebra by 7th grade. There's no reason that kids intrinsically aren't ready or mature enough to tackle Algebra in 7th. The reason many aren't ready is that math is often taught poorly from K-6.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the goal of every other parent on this board?

So, if you take Algebra I in 7th grade, what is the result? What is the difference in outcome for the student who takes algebra I in 7th vs. the student who takes it in 8th grade?

My child is in 6th grade btw.

I would really appreciate it if someone would explain this to me as my child will be going to 7th next year and, if she fulfill the requirements, I would like to make an informed decision.

Thanks.

I have two children.

One did not take algebra honors until 8th grade. He did take AP Calc BC and AP Stats in his senior year. He majored in computer engineering at a top ten engineering school Dec 2019) and is now in the workforce and earning a masters through his employers. This path worked for him as he just needed an extra year for things to gel.

The second one did take Algebra Honors in 7th. He took BC Calc in 11th grade and took Matrix/ Multivar in 12th. He just graduated as a math major and is now applying for math PhD programs. He has never had a math class he didn’t like/love. Math is his language. Taking Algebra Honors in 7th was right for him.

It works for some kids and other need more foundation or just more time for their minds to gel.

[Anonymous]

In LCPS, there are multiple middle schools where the majority of kids take algebra in 7th grade or sooner. Stone Hill has multiple sections of algebra 2/trig.

[Anonymous]

Don't worry. This will be disappearing in about 5 years, with kids mostly taking algebra in 9th grade. Fairfax might still advance some sections, but they will still be on the new VMPI state curriculum which will be watered down.