Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes

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[Post New]10/08/2014 22:58
quote
Anonymous
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Please tell me you are not so ignorant that you think 1400 years ago, arabs int he desert use to cast ballots to vote You have got to be kidding me! Bai'ah was their way to elect a leader whether you like it or not, whether it is to your satisfaction or not, is quite frankly irrelevant!


You're the one who keeps talking about casting ballots. Don't blame anyone else.

The point is, pledging allegiance is very different from VOTING.
[Post New]10/08/2014 23:01
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:

Please tell me you are not so ignorant that you think 1400 years ago, arabs int he desert use to cast ballots to vote You have got to be kidding me! Bai'ah was their way to elect a leader whether you like it or not, whether it is to your satisfaction or not, is quite frankly irrelevant!


You're the one who keeps talking about casting ballots. Don't blame anyone else.

The point is, pledging allegiance is very different from VOTING.


To spell it out for you, you pledge allegiance to a guy WHO IS ALREADY IN POWER. Too late for any voting.
[Post New]10/08/2014 23:16
quote
Anonymous
Muslima wrote:
yehhhhhh, you asked for a source, woman/man whatever you are. Once you get the source , your argument is "you brought what you think Islam should be like" ahhahahaha WELL, the problem is I didn't write this piece, and I did not write the Quran. Really, this is Islam, sorry to burst your bubble! nOW YOU also want evidence, because what i brought wasn't 'evidence" enough ahha, this is why I refused to "educate" you in the first place. See , I don't argue just for the sake of arguments, I have no interest in sterile discussions. I have shown you clear sources that show how muslim women voted 1400 years ago, sorry I couldn't resuscitate the dead bodies of all of those muslim women as evidence so they could bear witness about how they casted ballots way back when #MuslimApologies


You didn't show any "clear sources". You brought a story about Umar, or was it Uthman's ascent to power, and the story you brought isn't the only version of how he got to power.

Then you brought Muhammad Asad's opinion of how things ought to be. We already know where all that opining got him.

You didn't bring any actual historical records or sources of Muslim women participating in elections en masse. You didn't even bring any Quranic sources confirming that women had a right to vote. You just brought your assumptions.
[Post New]10/08/2014 23:23
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I repeat, Islam gave women the right to vote over 1400 years ago, it is a fact! You are doing a wonderful job confusing ISLAM with MUSLIMS.


Oh my little scholar. You are endearing in your righteousness. How wonderful Islam could have been! If only Muslims would stop interfering! What a fabulous system! Too bad it didn't work anywhere. These damn people.


Don't be a condescending ass. One does not need an Islamic state to practice Islam successfully. As a result, Muslims practice freely here in the US, Canada, and many nonMuslim countries. The vast majority of Muslims live happily, however, in their Islamic states.


I didn't say anything about an Islamic state. I made a pointed comment that it seems ironic to praise Islam while discounting Muslims. It's a very peculiar system that works well on paper but fails whenever it is implemented by actual people.

That Muslims practice freely in the US and Canada says nice things, primarily, about the US and Canada.

You have no idea how happily the vast majority of Muslim live.

And there are no Islamic states in existence presently. You must be confusing them with Muslim-majority states.
[Post New]10/08/2014 23:46
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Anonymous
O my little dissembler. Clearly, you're counting on finding a roomful of non-Muslims who have no idea what it is that you're quoting. Let us review the surah you brought:

O Prophet! When the believing women come to you—pledging allegiance to you that they shall not associate anything ?as a god? with God; nor shall they steal; nor shall they commit illicit sexual intercourse; nor shall they kill their children; nor shall they come forth with ?a previously conceived child in? a calumny they forge between their own hands and legs; nor shall they disobey you in any rightful thing—then accept their allegiance, and seek God’s forgiveness for them. Indeed, God is all-forgiving, mercy-giving. — Ahmad Zaki

Now, what exactly is the Quran talking about here?

When Muhammad was still nowhere as powerful as he would become, he and his followers camped out at Medina. At the time, Mecca was controlled by the Quraish, a pagan tribe. The relations between the two were often strained. The hostilities, though, ended by concluding a Treaty of Hudaibiya, the conditions of which were seen as burdensome by many Muslims. One of them was that anyone from Mecca entering Medina was subject to being returned to Meccans (even if the escapee claimed to be a Muslim and not pagan - remember, at the time Islam was still a new thing), while the reverse wasn't true for the other party. Eventually, the matter was resolved by the revelation that if women claiming to be Muslim emigrate to Medina seeking refuge, they should be examined by the ruler (Muhammad), and if found to be of good character and not Meccan spies, they should be admitted to residence. Call it an expedited background check for the Medinan green card. That's why the conditions that they should not lie, steal, kill their children or associate others with God. It's not to vote. It's to prove that they are in fact Muslim as they claim to be. (Have you heard of any test of character before voting? Huh? Bad people vote too, you know).

This has nothing at all to do with voting. It has to do with one tribe attracting followers from another. And shame on you for trying to sell it as a semblance of voting.
[Post New]10/08/2014 23:51
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Anonymous
More translations, for the doubters:

Sahih International: O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah , nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Pickthall: O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe no thing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shakir: O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar: Prophet, when believing women come to you pledging not to consider anything equal to God, not to steal, or to commit fornication, not to kill their children, or to bring false charges against anyone (such as ascribing others children to their husbands), and not to disobey you in lawful matters, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from God. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Mohsin Khan: O Prophet! When believing women come to you to give you the Bai'a (pledge), that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit illegal sexual intercourse, that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood (i.e. by making illegal children belonging to their husbands), and that they will not disobey you in any Ma'ruf (Islamic Monotheism and all that which Islam ordains) then accept their Bai'a (pledge), and ask Allah to forgive them, Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arberry: O Prophet, when believing women come to thee, swearing fealty to thee upon the terms that they will not associate with God anything, and will not steal, neither commit adultery, nor slay their children, nor bring a calumny they forge between their hands and their feet, nor disobey thee in aught honourable, ask God's forgiveness for them; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.
[Post New]10/09/2014 00:38
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I repeat, Islam gave women the right to vote over 1400 years ago, it is a fact! You are doing a wonderful job confusing ISLAM with MUSLIMS.


Oh my little scholar. You are endearing in your righteousness. How wonderful Islam could have been! If only Muslims would stop interfering! What a fabulous system! Too bad it didn't work anywhere. These damn people.


Don't be a condescending ass. One does not need an Islamic state to practice Islam successfully. As a result, Muslims practice freely here in the US, Canada, and many nonMuslim countries. The vast majority of Muslims live happily, however, in their Islamic states.


I didn't say anything about an Islamic state. I made a pointed comment that it seems ironic to praise Islam while discounting Muslims. It's a very peculiar system that works well on paper but fails whenever it is implemented by actual people.

That Muslims practice freely in the US and Canada says nice things, primarily, about the US and Canada.

You have no idea how happily the vast majority of Muslim live.

And there are no Islamic states in existence presently. You must be confusing them with Muslim-majority states.


Good grief. What are you talking about? How can I not know the state of Muslims when I am a Muslim and how can I not know their level of satisfaction with their Islamic state if I lived in a Muslim country at one time? The better question is, how could you ever know? Are you Muslim? Did you live in a Muslim country before? No? Then sit down and certainly do not speak for Islam or Muslims.

Systems work well on paper and in practice providing its not influenced by wahabi Islam. Equality doesn't work well in all regards in this country but the idea is quite nice. The abolishment of slavery to eradicate discrimination was a monumental achievement but did it really outright stop discrimination? The frailty of human nature is one impediment to advances.

Islam is a remarkable and beautiful religion. It does not condone terrorism. It permits self defense. It does promote equality btw men and women, but not your western definition of equality, but an equality that is measured by the value of rights afforded. Different rights can still have equal value.

In Islam we pray five times a day, before sunrise, midday, late afternoon, before sunset, and just before typical bedtimes. So we are asked to take five minutes to reflect on God throughout our busy day. We abstain from food and water during Ramadan from sunrise to sunset. It makes our will stronger, our hearts more soft, and helps us to remember the needy.

It does not impose death for apostasy. Any country imposing death for apostasy is in the wrong. Apostates who have committed treason are treated with less forgiveness, however.

You need to stop using extreme cases and presenting it as mainstream Islam.

What do you derive from trashing Islam?
[Post New]10/09/2014 01:19
quote
Anonymous
Not getting into all of this ONCE again. Muslima, this is not the forum for you - and YES I AM an ISLAMAPHOBE because you cannot clearly explain your religion as being PEACEFUL with any credibility in three bullet points or less (no pun intended).

EXPLAIN ISIS, MUSLIMA.

Please, and once again, I'll call you out - you do NOT live in the District of Columbia as you have claimed so many times.

A liar. That is what you are.

Go on, tell us where you live and tell the truth.

And stop with your whining. Even your whining tone resonates through your writing. That is how much of a whiner you are.

Please, respond with a seven paragraph tome on allah.

You are a fraud and a farce. A little boy, probably posting under the name of Muslima!

[Post New]10/09/2014 06:59
quote
Anonymous
I am 0:38 and not Muslima. As a Muslim I can confirm she spoke the truth about Islam. If her information is insufficient to convince you that Islam is a peaceful religion, its time for you to let it go. Look at the pages and pages of crap you publish to vilify Islam. Muslima is not a scholar but she is devout. Faith is not determined by knowledge. It exists based on trust. You need knowledge to believe. Muslima does not.

If you need specific answers, why don't you call a couple scholars? Dr. Jamal Badawi lives in Nova Scotia and is the most knowledgeable person I know.

If answers are what you want, you will call. If arguing is your goal, you'll continue with your islsmophobic diatribes.

I hope to God Muslima does not engage you anymore. You clearly have some type of mental impairment. There is a psychiatric disorder in which patients argue incessantly and create disputes with people because ot stimulates a part of their brain that is understimulated. They crave arguing. They live for it. You may suffer from this disorder. Please get yourself checked out.
[Post New]10/09/2014 07:54
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:More translations, for the doubters:

Sahih International: O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah , nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Pickthall: O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe no thing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Yusuf Ali: O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Shakir: O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Muhammad Sarwar: Prophet, when believing women come to you pledging not to consider anything equal to God, not to steal, or to commit fornication, not to kill their children, or to bring false charges against anyone (such as ascribing others children to their husbands), and not to disobey you in lawful matters, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from God. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Mohsin Khan: O Prophet! When believing women come to you to give you the Bai'a (pledge), that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit illegal sexual intercourse, that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood (i.e. by making illegal children belonging to their husbands), and that they will not disobey you in any Ma'ruf (Islamic Monotheism and all that which Islam ordains) then accept their Bai'a (pledge), and ask Allah to forgive them, Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arberry: O Prophet, when believing women come to thee, swearing fealty to thee upon the terms that they will not associate with God anything, and will not steal, neither commit adultery, nor slay their children, nor bring a calumny they forge between their hands and their feet, nor disobey thee in aught honourable, ask God's forgiveness for them; God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.


I'm not sure who posted this, whether Muslima or 23:23. I am not 1:19 and I have no interest in debating whether the majority of Muslims are peaceful (and I suspect they are peaceful). I am certainly not 0:38/6:59, who is undoubtedly the nasty little sidekick.

That said.

These verses have *nothing* to do with women's vote. They are all all about pledging your loyalty TO MOHAMMED, WHO WAS ALREADY IN POWER. Nobody is voting for or against Mohammed here. Instead they are all pledging and proving to Mohammed that they are worthy of following him and his religion. I don't care how many translations you post, they all have the same meaning and context.

I agree with whoever said, Shame on you, Muslima.
[Post New]10/09/2014 08:02
quote
Anonymous
Muslima wrote:
yehhhhhh, you asked for a source, woman/man whatever you are. Once you get the source , your argument is "you brought what you think Islam should be like" ahhahahaha WELL, the problem is I didn't write this piece, and I did not write the Quran. Really, this is Islam, sorry to burst your bubble! nOW YOU also want evidence, because what i brought wasn't 'evidence" enough ahha, this is why I refused to "educate" you in the first place. See , I don't argue just for the sake of arguments, I have no interest in sterile discussions. I have shown you clear sources that show how muslim women voted 1400 years ago, sorry I couldn't resuscitate the dead bodies of all of those muslim women as evidence so they could bear witness about how they casted ballots way back when #MuslimApologies


In no way did you prove that women "cast ballots." You showed that women were allowed to join the cause of a powerful man who had already assumed leadership. Although only if they proved themselves morally worthy to the existing leader.

Friendly advice: you really hurt your own credibility when you write like an adolescent on Instagram.

[Post New]10/09/2014 08:16
quote
Anonymous
Muslima wrote:Saudi Arabia?? That's the best you can come up with? For your information, I do not think Saudi Arabia is a "Muslim" Country. It is a "muslim-majority" country. The women's rights issues in Saudi Arabia are issues of a nation (of man), not of a religion. Islam commands men to women with the utmost respect, whether or not the laws are followed has nothing to do with the religion itself. Of course, under dictatorship rulings , in most of the Muslim majority countries neither men nor women had the right to vote for a long time. I repeat, Islam gave women the right to vote over 1400 years ago, it is a fact! You are doing a wonderful job confusing ISLAM with MUSLIMS. You think 1400 years ago, people lined up with ballots to cast their votes? How do you think they used to do it back in the day??? Since I don't want us to go on and about for 20 pages about Muslim Women voting rights which of course makes you pause since in your world such oppressed creatures could really not have this right 1400 years ago when in the US we only got that right like in 1920, I will go against my best judgment and try to "enlighten" you because clearly, i want to move on.....



Of course, we did much better than Saudi Arabia. You just chose to ignore it.

So, since you brought it up yourself, let's return to this. Please explain to us, Muslima, your claim from yesterday at 15:19, where you said that the US, which granted voting rights in 1920, lagged far behind Muslim countries in granting voting rights to women women. But the link below shows Turkey, under pro-western Attaturk, was the first non-Communist, majority Muslim country to grant voting rights to women in 1930. In 1945, Senegal and Indonesia (both still colonies) became the 2nd and 3rd Muslim-majority states to grant voting rights to women.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

So, explain why we shouldn't write this off as just another one of your little whoppers.


[Post New]10/09/2014 08:49
quote
Anonymous
I'm not really why people bring up the conditions of women in Saudi Arabia as an example of a "Muslim Country", Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy. It is not the whole of the Islamic World.
Since you love links here is one for you:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/gallery/2009/mar/25/muslim-women-power-list

and here is a post about women's rights in Ancient Persia, they did enjoy far more rights than they do today.
Somehow men have once again twisted a religion to subjugate women as America did.
http://www.iranreview.org/content/Documents/Women_s_Rights_in_Ancient_Persia.htm
[Post New]10/09/2014 08:54
quote
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:I'm not really why people bring up the conditions of women in Saudi Arabia as an example of a "Muslim Country", Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy. It is not the whole of the Islamic World.
Since you love links here is one for you:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/gallery/2009/mar/25/muslim-women-power-list

and here is a post about women's rights in Ancient Persia, they did enjoy far more rights than they do today.
Somehow men have once again twisted a religion to subjugate women as America did.
http://www.iranreview.org/content/Documents/Women_s_Rights_in_Ancient_Persia.htm

and 5 Muslim women make the Forbes List of most powerful women
http://muslimvillage.com/2014/05/30/53991/five-muslims-in-forbes-100-most-powerful-women-list/
[Post New]10/09/2014 09:05
quote
Muslima
Member

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Anonymous wrote:
Muslima wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Please tell me you are not so ignorant that you think 1400 years ago, arabs int he desert use to cast ballots to vote You have got to be kidding me! Bai'ah was their way to elect a leader whether you like it or not, whether it is to your satisfaction or not, is quite frankly irrelevant!


You're the one who keeps talking about casting ballots. Don't blame anyone else.

The point is, pledging allegiance is very different from VOTING.





Go and study the history of the Arabs in the desert 1400 hundred years, go and study how tribes operated and how leaders were elected. You must be delusional
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