Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

I thought this article mapped the DCUM discussion pretty closely.
Muslima: Islam treats captives well and it treats women equally.
Various posters: but the Quran says XYZ and the Quran is the word of God so it can't be ignored.
Muslima: I meant, the Quran treats women with equal justice with an emphasis on society's needs trumping individual needs.
... Long digression on the relative roles of the Quran and sharia (interestingly, another pp here just wrote that sharia is fundamental to being a Muslim, while a different Muslim poster here says she doesn't give it great authority)
... Another long digression on whether Muslima and the other poster speak for Islam, or whether they are engaged in a conversion effort that involves some white-washing, or whether their Islam is as valid, or more valid because it's personal and people are entitled to that, than al-Azhar's Islam.

Cue insults from both sides.

V
Should we talk about why you got spanked by the moderator?

The moderator apparently shares your view, that you are entitled to represent all of Islam with statements like "Islam treats captives well" or "Islam offers equality to women" (both things you and Muslima have said without any further qualifications or explanations, until you were challenged), and that bringing up Quranic verses and sharia that millions of other Muslims follow constitutes bigotry. I'm happy for you that it gives you endless opportunities for gloating little victory laps.

That's the moderator's prerogative. However I and others here disagree that you're entitled to speak for all of Islam, mostly because you've been caught being ignorant of your own holy book several times (by another PP, not me) and you've also been caught flat-out wrong several times (converts, treating captives well, women, just to mention a few examples).

It's also troubling that you call anybody who doesn't agree with you, for whatever reason (providing new evidence, disagreeing on the beauty of women's roles), an Islamophobe.

It's also troubling that you started several different threads accusing Christianity (but not Judaism, for whatever reason) of promoting polygamy, violence and homophobia, but you expect perfect respect for your own religion. Do you have a double standard?

To be clear, you are absolutely entitled to have your own version of Islam and to represent it as such. What I and others find troubling is that you represent your very particular Islam as the same Islam followed by millions of even moderate Muslims.

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made) is actually misleading in many contexts. anybody who questions or doubts this is an Islamophobe"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Excellent article.

Yes by this and many other measures I am an Islamophobe. I have been negative on religion since reading the old testament and learning about a hateful and jealous god.

I just dont get it.

Seems like Quran is the same repetition and message, just a different prophet, but yet it is even worse, in that the leader was a warlord general and very violent. The Quran is supposedly the word of God, is perfect, yet contains hate filled verses used to justify murder of innocents that think differently. It advocates mixing government and religion. And people think Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with the Quran and the religion. That it is a cultural thing. How can people think that someone reads this stuff over and over and it has no impact.

From article, have you experienced this ...

(3) The Muslim responds by defending these verses as Allah's word -- he insists that they have been quoted "out of context," have been misinterpreted, are meant as metaphor, or that they may even have been mistranslated.

(4) Despite being shown multiple translations, or told that some of these passages (like similar passages in other holy books) are questionable in any context, the Muslim insists on his/her defense of the Scripture.

So Muslims say your interpretations of something is wrong and this is what they believe. Now you say they are wrong for believe that for decades because it does not follow you agenda....that seems very ignorant to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We are not rehashing 15 pages. All explanations were provided. The problem was that you refused to accept that the vast majority of 1.5 or 1.6 billions are peaceful. You refused to accept that reading the Quran in context of history is imperative. The typical Muslim does not study the Quran in context but they are required to. Therefore, others objected. You painted Islam with a broad brush and it made you look like an Islamophobe.

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece, by a Muslim, on the disconnect that results when non-Muslims ask Muslims about Quranic verses. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-open-letter-to-moderat_b_5930764.html

Ali Rizvi? Seriously? He describes himself as an "Atheist Muslim", don't know what that means, but go figure.....

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:You are the same poster who follows me at every corner asking where I live, lol. I have already answered you, many times but you don't believe I live where I said I do, I won't repeat myself, so I guess my location shall remain a mystery for you. Don't even know why it's relevant, do you ask any other poster where they are posting from? Maybe if you're nice, I might send you a postcard one of these days Happy Friday~

How was your Eid, Muslima? Alhamdulillah I attended a mosque near my family. There were four different Eid salat times, each one with 1500 or so attendees. Just 30 yrs ago, we barely filled the praying room! We've come a loong way! Hope your Eid was great.
- the other Muslim ?

Eid was great alhamdulilah! I always love the 2 Eids and getting together with the community. We've definitely come a long way, I guess you realize that even more so at Eid where people come out and socialize, so it was good that it was on a Saturday. Glad you had a good Eid as well! Looking forward to Ashura inshaAllah

Muslima, other than fasting, do you do anything else for Ashura? Are you Shia Muslim? I am sunni but my husband's family is shia.

By the way, did you see Ben Affleck going off on Bill Maher? I have newfound respect for him for standing up to such ugly comments.

Anonymous wrote:Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Anonymous wrote:Reformatting my earlier post to make it clear to everyone how you define Islamophobe.

****

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

******

And a few more points. I studied Islam with a world expert on Islam, who went on to be president of a major university in the Middle East.

On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."

Signed, poster you called angry bad cook, with the spouse who wants to divorce her, the kid who is into drugs and porn, and who secretly wants to convert to Islam

Anonymous wrote:Reformatting my earlier post to make it clear to everyone how you define Islamophobe.

****

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

******

And a few more points. I studied Islam with a world expert on Islam, who went on to be president of a major university in the Middle East.

On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."

Signed, poster you called angry bad cook, with the spouse who wants to divorce her, the kid who is into drugs and porn, and who secretly wants to convert to Islam

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reformatting my earlier post to make it clear to everyone how you define Islamophobe.

****

No, you made that up. I never, ever said the vast majority of Muslims are not peaceful. Your friend the moderator can verify. In fact I think the vast majority ARE peaceful.

Ergo, I never painted anyone with a broad brush. Ergo, I am not an Islamophobe.

Unless--according to one of your many other definitions of Islamophobia--it's Islamophobic to fail to agree that women's limited divorce, testimony and inheritance rights constitute "equal justice" for women and are in society's best interest.

Or unless, according to another one of your definitions of Islamophobia, it was Islamophobic to participate among the many other posters who cited Quranic verses and shariah against your personal interpretations of divorce and other laws, or who challenged you over maybe 10 pages (ten pages!) to provide stats backing up your conversion claims. I'm definitely a stickler for cites, legal rulings and stats as a way to understand what's going on in the rest of the world. I don't trust you enough to take your word on the weather, at this point. Sorry.

******

And a few more points. I studied Islam with a world expert on Islam, who went on to be president of a major university in the Middle East.

On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."

Signed, poster you called angry bad cook, with the spouse who wants to divorce her, the kid who is into drugs and porn, and who secretly wants to convert to Islam

Really??? Why didn't you say that sooner??? I would have rolled out the red carpet for you I guess your studying under that "World expert of Islam" did not teach you much unfortunately, how sad!!!....Just so you know a lot of so called 'Terrorists" or "Extremists" also "studied" Islam with a "World expert" of Islam ( what does that even mean?? world expert of Islam....) but yeah, from now i guess you are the "Expert" on this....

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Ok, I have ignored you for a long time but you keep repeating the same thing over and over and use "equality" at each corner. So, let me be clear. Equality doesn't mean X=Y. Equality means that in the face of Divine Law, both men and women are equal, i-e Allah judge all of His servants according to their deeds, not according to their gender. Men & Women practice the 5 pillars of Islam the same way. There isn't a special Quran for men and a special Quran for females. Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. They both face the same consequences or rewards of their deeds. Both genders are entitled to equality before the law and courts of law. Justice is genderless.

Now, I already know what you are going to come back with. But a man can have 4 wives, a man's testimony is worth more than a woman's , women inherit less, yadi yadi yada, We've debated those over 20 pages in different threads, no need to rehash them once more. If you didn't get it then, you won't it now. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. Their roles and responsibilities in life are different because of their physical and emotional differences. We have different demands, different responsibilities ect. Righteousness determines the value of humans in Allah's sight. It is not their gender or race, if you can't get that, well I can't help it. No need to have the same discussion with the same arguments 1000x, really!

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let's do that last para again:

Bottom line: How does it promote understanding about what's going on in many moderate Muslim societies today, to leave people with the unmoderated statement that "Islam offers equality to women (again, a statement that one of you actually made), which is actually misleading in many contexts. And further, to claim that anybody who questions or doubts your statements about "Islam offers equality to women" is an "Islamophobe"?

I'm not afraid of the moderator. I disagree with him that defending underdogs means allowing any kind of BS you want to post to go completely unquestioned.

Ok, I have ignored you for a long time but you keep repeating the same thing over and over and use "equality" at each corner. So, let me be clear. Equality doesn't mean X=Y. Equality means that in the face of Divine Law, both men and women are equal, i-e Allah judge all of His servants according to their deeds, not according to their gender. Men & Women practice the 5 pillars of Islam the same way. There isn't a special Quran for men and a special Quran for females. Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. They both face the same consequences or rewards of their deeds. Both genders are entitled to equality before the law and courts of law. Justice is genderless.

Now, I already know what you are going to come back with. But a man can have 4 wives, a man's testimony is worth more than a woman's , women inherit less, yadi yadi yada, We've debated those over 20 pages in different threads, no need to rehash them once more. If you didn't get it then, you won't it now. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. Their roles and responsibilities in life are different because of their physical and emotional differences. We have different demands, different responsibilities ect. Righteousness determines the value of humans in Allah's sight. It is not their gender or race, if you can't get that, well I can't help it. No need to have the same discussion with the same arguments 1000x, really!