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CampChairCoffee wrote:Is there any difference between these leagues, or are they essentially the same thing?
USYS National League P.R.O. requires qualification from a USYS or EDP league and is on a team-by-team, year-by-year basis. On the boys side, P.R.O. teams statistically are expected to perform vs. MLS Next teams as well as ECNL. EDP contains multiple levels of leagues, so at a broad level of generality, they are very different vs. P.R.O., though the P.R.O. qualifiers come out of EDP leagues. USYS Elite 64 is more like ECNL format - club v. club and fixed year over year. Whether it is better than first division regional EDP depends on where your kid lives. All are at a disadvantage to MLS Next and ECNL.
MightyRobb wrote:MLSNext is broken down between the Pro Team Academies and the Non-Pro Academies although they all play each other. The Pro Academies are a pipeline to professional soccer whereas the Non-Pro Academies are roughly in line with ECNL. Non-Pro Academies and ECNL are more college focused.
If you look at age group rankings, the top 25 teams are mixed between MLS and ECNL teams with more MLS teams there.
Another difference is that ECNL players can play high school soccer, MLSNext players can't.
The new National Academy League may be good but ultimately it will always be the 2nd team for a club whereas ENCL teams are the 1st team for that club. So even if a kid has his heart set on MLSNext, playing on a second team does not mean they will have a chance at the 1st team over outside players. As a matter of fact, it may be worse for the kid already at the club versus an outside player coming in.
The top ECNL teams can undoubtedly compete with top MLS Next non-academy teams, but in this area especially, the middle and bottom of MLS Next is substantially better than the middle of ECNL, and I think those gaps are likely to grow over time as we continue to see more movement at younger ages to MLS Next. Also, the ECNL schedules are very, very light for high school players to permit them to play high school soccer, as you note. I think that's great, and frankly, the ban on high school soccer for everybody in MLS Next outside club academy teams is preposterous. But it is a major difference.
For competitive players, I agree that ECNL is going to be better than National Academy teams. I don't think clubs will begin using those second teams as an MLS Next reserve (any more than they already might with 2-3 top second team players).
Ossalt wrote:Out of those 4, I'd look at SYC and Arlington. SYC will be a stronger team but Arlington has great coaches. SYC tryouts for 2014 are next week, Arlington tryouts start this week. SYC MLSNext, Arlington ECNL. Check out both, see which team your son likes best. Good luck!
Alexandria has the best boys coaching and development in the area through U12. SYC has top-notch teams and has done a terrific job recruiting at development on specific teams. They don't tend to rotate coaches, at least not on the teams I've seen. Beyond U12, Arlington coaches are the best in the area. McLean/VA Union also has good coaches and appears to put a bigger premium on big and fast across ages. You cannot go wrong with any of these options so long as your kid likes the other players and the developmental approach of the club and coach. The OP definitely knows what he's doing already - going to see the teams and having your kid practice with the team a few times before tryouts is the best way to evaluate the fit.
TedLasso wrote:CleansheetDad wrote:westsidesoccer wrote:
Thank you. This is very interesting. I am shocked to see almost no difference between ECNL and National PRO on the boys side relative to MLS Next. Though not too surprised. As a player parent, I don't see any point in discussing leagues across genders, or, more generally, across pretty diverse regions and all age groups. The fact that ECNL offers top play for young women is completely irrelevant to my son.
You may think it is irrelevant to your son that ECNL allows for top play for both girls and boys, but you would by wrong. Clubs must have both their boys and girls teams in the ECNL National league to be a member. This is one reason why Arlington is in ECNL and not in MLSNext. This allows ECNL to give a more sustainable model for clubs to market themselves and to make money. Boys and girls teams support each other. They allow clubs to pay coaches and give more scholarships to both sides. If you have a club that can only REALLY market itself for high level play to the boy segment of the population, then the club will need to have a large number of lower level teams with players that pay full amounts to support the MLSNext team expenses, along with the scholarships for that team. And I do feel sorry for those parents who have been sold on development for their children, when in fact all they are is a paying parent.
As a player parent, who has seen alphabet leagues rise and fall, or come and go (the old DA league comes to mind), I think MLSNext is just the old DA league with a new name. This affects the boys on the second teams when a league folds and then your club is trying to find a league to play in the next season. Many of these teams that are going into the National Academy League are currently in EDP, before that they were in CCL, and before that they were in NCLS. There really isn't much difference and ultimately, in a couple of years these same teams will be in another league so the MLSNext clubs can try to market themselves.
Go Luck to the teams that are joining the new league. Don't get too comfortable or buy anything with NAL on it as it will be obsolete in about 2 years time.
I thought the same thing and then discovered Baltimore Celtic fields a GA team and a boys ECNL national team. So is it really in their rules or what happened with that club?
There are a number of other clubs for whom this is true as well, as well as the reverse (in this area, for example, Bethesda, with MLS Next for boys and ECNL for girls). In fact, some clubs have both MLS Next and ECNL boys teams. The original post above makes even less sense when you think about the reality that whether a top team is MLS Next or ECNL, there is inevitably a smaller group of parents within the club for whom that top team is relevant. That does not stop multiple clubs from having multiple girls and boys teams across multiple ages. it is simply a non sequitur.
CleansheetDad wrote:westsidesoccer wrote:
Thank you. This is very interesting. I am shocked to see almost no difference between ECNL and National PRO on the boys side relative to MLS Next. Though not too surprised. As a player parent, I don't see any point in discussing leagues across genders, or, more generally, across pretty diverse regions and all age groups. The fact that ECNL offers top play for young women is completely irrelevant to my son.
You may think it is irrelevant to your son that ECNL allows for top play for both girls and boys, but you would by wrong. Clubs must have both their boys and girls teams in the ECNL National league to be a member. This is one reason why Arlington is in ECNL and not in MLSNext. This allows ECNL to give a more sustainable model for clubs to market themselves and to make money. Boys and girls teams support each other. They allow clubs to pay coaches and give more scholarships to both sides. If you have a club that can only REALLY market itself for high level play to the boy segment of the population, then the club will need to have a large number of lower level teams with players that pay full amounts to support the MLSNext team expenses, along with the scholarships for that team. And I do feel sorry for those parents who have been sold on development for their children, when in fact all they are is a paying parent.
As a player parent, who has seen alphabet leagues rise and fall, or come and go (the old DA league comes to mind), I think MLSNext is just the old DA league with a new name. This affects the boys on the second teams when a league folds and then your club is trying to find a league to play in the next season. Many of these teams that are going into the National Academy League are currently in EDP, before that they were in CCL, and before that they were in NCLS. There really isn't much difference and ultimately, in a couple of years these same teams will be in another league so the MLSNext clubs can try to market themselves.
Go Luck to the teams that are joining the new league. Don't get too comfortable or buy anything with NAL on it as it will be obsolete in about 2 years time.
Yes, well, I and many others have experience with the alphabet soup of leagues and league-chest-beating as well, and despite all of the dire predictions in 2020/2021 about how SYC, Achilles and Alexandria would never have anything beyond U-14, or how they would never be able to play MLS club academies, or how ECNL would ultimately prevail, I don't think the last three years have borne that out at all. There is a talent gap and it continues to widen across the country. That goal difference will continue to expand. And kids will still go to SYC and Alexandria in droves at younger ages. Can we just give the league crap a rest?
CleansheetDad wrote:I see this as another attempt by the MLSNext Academies to try and "sell" their second teams to unsuspecting parents. It seems that the ECNL Academies have a better structure for both the boys and girls with the National and Regional leagues. Most MLSNext clubs have their second teams in EDP, which is inferior competition when compared to ECNL Regional. In fact, many ECNL Regional teams play both ECNL-R and EDP so the data below may even be greater between EDP and ECNL-R.
USA Sports Statistics analyzed all the results in the Soccer Rankings app to find which leagues should be considered the best. They calculated the rating of the average team in each league for each age group and gender and found the rankings were the same for each of the 2006 - 2010 age groups. They also calculated the difference between the average team in each league and the average team in the best league. For example, the average boys MLSNext team should beat the average boys Elite 64 team by about 2.3 goals. Their takeaway is that there is a lot of overlap in quality between MLSNext and ECNL National boys. However, Elite 64, EA and ECNL Regional boys are quite similar and a lot weaker. For girls, ECNL National is by far the strongest competition.
Girls Ranking with goal difference
1. ECNL National
2. GA - 1.5
3. National League PRO - 1.5
4.ELITE 64 - 2.3
5. ECNL Regional - 3.2
6. DPL - 3.8
7. NPL - 4.0
8. EDP - 5.0
Boys Ranking with goal difference
1. MLSNext
2. ECNL National - 0.7
3. National League PRO - 0.8
4. ELITE 64 - 2.3
5. Elite Academy - 2.6
6. ECNL Regional - 3.2
7. NPL - 3.7
8. EDP - 4.2
I see ECNL as the better league for the majority of clubs as a whole. They can sell the high level of competition to both girls and boys, allow them to play for their High School, along with the options for developing players to move up or just play in a region without having to travel too far. This allows clubs to market themselves to a wider variety of parent and player. MLSNext though only has a high level of play for boys, limited opportunities for its current players due to their rules (both on game day and for High School teams), and no girl teams. So for an MLSNext club, you can really only market yourself to about 18-20 boys families. That limits the clubs resources and marketing capabilities since many parents want to give their kids a chance to develop and grow.
Thank you. This is very interesting. I am shocked to see almost no difference between ECNL and National PRO on the boys side relative to MLS Next. Though not too surprised. As a player parent, I don't see any point in discussing leagues across genders, or, more generally, across pretty diverse regions and all age groups. The fact that ECNL offers top play for young women is completely irrelevant to my son.
From an outsider's perspective (and somebody whose kid may try out with Arlington this Spring), I view this as a pretty balanced club that is righly proud of its place and people for older age groups. I don't really see a need for them to rock the boat with desperate or meaningless alliances or combinations, or zigs and zags as leagues change. They are well positioned if they do nothing at all. They have first-rate coaches, a well-established record of developing players for college and beyond, and compete effectively against top teams in the ECNL Mid-Atlantic. The bigger change at Arlington (long overdue) would occur U9-12.
Size5Balls wrote:The only people I would see caring about this are either MLS Next coaches who don't want their players getting two-footed buy some rec kid or parents whose kids are on the bubble of making varsity. Having some MLS Next kids on the HS team would probably help the overall aesthetic of the game. They might actually try to play soccer instead of the usual kick and run garbage that 95% of HS games devolve into.
That’s just stupid. A third group might be ECNL kids who felt like they made a sacrifice by playing in a lesser league so they could play for their school. Your imagination and probably a lot of other qualities are limited.
akindc wrote:You posted the same exact thing last year.
High school coaches are allowing it becasue they want the best teams possible, and there's no rule, from the high school side, against it.
If an MLS Next program is letting their kids play at public high schools, that's somethng to bring up with the program.
And as for why, clearly kids want to both play on the highest level club team they can, and play high school as well.
The problem is that other people may have chosen ECNL precisely so they could play high school soccer, and may have made a sacrifice that others have not made simply because the latter decide to flout rules. I don't care either way, but the argument is logical, as is the desire to play wherever one wants whenever one wants.
Lasso_FC_Girls wrote:TedLasso wrote:Blutarski wrote:TedLasso wrote:
Youth soccer would be so much better if there was pro/rel throughout but there's way too many different leagues/clubs currently to pull that off.
TedLasso, why would youth soccer be so much better with pro/rel ?
I definitely don't know or have all the answers, nor do I know what the silver bullet is. What I do know is that the current landscape is a huge and there are far too many clubs and leagues nationwide even for 'national' programs/leagues. A good article about this came out when the DA folded but still within there you can see why it would be difficult to solve this problem we have.
https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2020/4/16/21223638/us-soccer-development-academy-closed-coronavirus-mens-womens-national-teams
IMO, the ONLY way it could happen is if somehow all the leagues merged and manage it from there. ECNL, GA, and USYS for girls all together and MLS, ECNL, and USYS for boys. Unfortunetely this will never ever happen.
What can happen on the girls side though is GA folding and both ECNL and USYS split the teams involved. I don't consider ECNL and ECNL RL a pro system and USYS E64 vs. USYS P.RO. is confusing to me. I think if ECNL were to start a 3rd teir division, it could implement a relegation system. USYS could re-organize the system it has in place to a relegation system E64>P.R.O.>DPL/EDP. I think E64 is just Clubs chosen by USYS?
Boys is a little tougher because I don't see MLS Next or ECNL going anywhere and when you add in USYS, it gets very complicated.
The other huge hurdle is ideally you want to relegate by age group. Since the Elite leagues travel to other states and have long commutes, relegating an age group to play against an opponent that could be 300 miles away from another age group that could possibly share the same coach would make things impossible.
As for NVA Alliance, I don't see much of an impact. Smart parents are going to take their kids to the coach and system they feel is a better fit even if it means driving 45 minutes. Parents who are not concerned are going to go the most convenient. Everyone mentions VDA but forgets QP has a major recruiting oppurtunity in HP Elite training business which is a perfect example of some families willing to travel versus those who don't. NVA will certainly have larger pool to pull from and I think it will help the younger ages even more than it has already, but let's face it, a lot of players start leaving at or before U13 for reasons that I can only assume, and you know what happens when you assume.
From what I've seen on the boys side, E64 is a step down from P.R.O., where teams are invited on the basis of previous year's performance in their leagues. You are correct - E64 is clubs, not teams, and teams/age groups are bundled regardless of their individual merit.
Of all the reasons to be embarrassed about US soccer, this has gone straight to the top of the list. I am shocked that two elite athletes like the Reynas regressed to become the most insane soccer parents in the United States, which is saying quite a bit. If they did this without Gio's knowledge, it would be all the more shocking. Either way, he should never play on a US team again, and he certainly would not play on any club team I'd manage.
NoYou wrote:The Guardian really takes the US style of play to task after the loss to the Netherlands.
"What did the US lack most at the World Cup? Football intelligence"
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/04/what-did-the-us-lack-most-at-the-world-cup-football-intelligence
"This is a difficult one to handle,” Berhalter reflected when interviewed on the pitch after full-time. “We came up short today, but not for a lack of effort.” Effort may not have been lacking, but many other qualities essential to footballing success were: commitment off the ball, defensive nous, ruthlessness in front of goal. Despite the precision of the opposition’s finishing, the US were not undone by moments of individual brilliance, quirks of technology, or other acts of semi-divine footballing intervention; instead their demise was almost entirely self-inflicted. The US failures were in defense and attack, basic areas of core technical competence. Truly, this was a team who saved their worst for last."
"USA’s familiar shortcomings exposed against clinical Dutch at World Cup"
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/dec/03/usa-netherlands-world-cup-2022-soccer-last-16
"The Americans’ profligacy from promising attacking positions, their imprecision in building chances from possession and their consistently poor set-pieces all came under a harsh glare on the world stage after persisting through an often-rocky World Cup qualifying campaign. For three matches in Qatar they were able to make up the difference with closely knit team play fueled by boundless energy in midfield. But when the reserves ran dry on Saturday night, their defects finally caught up with them."
How many US Youth soccer matches have I seen with this same style of play. Run-run-run-run until you are tired and then sub out someone else who run-run-run-run-runs. It's frustrating that this mentality has such a hold in the US when over and over again it isn't working at the top levels.
Their podcast commentators were even worse in the wake of the tie. Who cares. Anybody who grew up with English football in the 80s and 90s knows that it was not and could not have been the football geniuses in England who revolutionized football in the EPL. It was imported, lock, stock and two smoking barrels. The problem today is that English fans confuse the EPL with English football itself. Nobody is guiltier of this confusion than the English media. Most fans there still hiss when the ball is played back, sneer when defenders are smart enough not to slide-tackle, and giggle with joy with every absolutely pointless cross thrown into the mixer. The people on the continent are doing circles around the English in developing players, including a number of players on that English team. I give the players and the league and its owners credit in opening a very provincial league to external influences, which is a key to long term improvement and competitiveness. Soccer intelligence? Come on. We have a very shallow talent pool. Those players have plenty of IQ and frankly are not as athletic as a lot of their opponents.
These are excellent questions. Practicing in condensed space and in small-sided games persists as teams age up to larger fields for a variety of reasons, even when more field space is available. But I wonder whether too much play in small-sided games and futsal may have an effect on fuller-field vision a bit? Just like I wonder whether youth soccer players who do not play football or baseball have a very difficult time learning how to track and run with balls in the air.
Cruzado wrote:westsidesoccer wrote:Others who sensibly opt for scholarship are not likely to be competitive with most kids who spend a lot more time on academics than on multiple practices, showcases, etc.
Meh. Most often the choice is between a teenager playing vidya games or screwing around on his iphone versus playing soccer; not reading the Iliad or learning advanced math versus playing soccer.
My kid loves soccer and is good at it. I laughed at the silly "Diary of a Soccer Dad" post because it was funny
Plenty of "academic" focused strivers who end up at hoity toity schools studying useless subjects have been my barista at Starbucks over the years. Don't laugh too hard your kid may be one of them.
Re: the choice between video games and soccer, that's what rec is for. If your kid doesn't want to play, they shouldn't be playing travel. If they want to play, terrific. But they can still play rec if they have the ability and willingness to do other things or high school soccer. For high-achievers, yes, the choice is between doing a Science or Math Olympiad and a showcase, and it is a choice on multiple weekends for years.
In terms of your other comments, I will say only that your acquaintances are pretty limited.
SoccerSkeptic wrote:Size5Balls wrote:soccer197 wrote:Looks like the youth soccer games site has added rankings now. https://youthsoccergames.com
That site's rankings are all over the place. Looks worse than Got Soccer.
I agree this site's rankings are terrible, but so is gotsoccer, so I'd say about equably terrible.
I am using the site created by the former creator of YSR. It is much better and different than the site to which you are referring. It is simply called "Soccer Rankings" in the AppStore.