Anonymous wrote:
You can't think of any good reasons why someone would vote against a tax? Perhaps you should think harder.

I can think of hypothetical scenarios in which I would not support diversifying the Fairfax County tax revenue base. For example, if Alexandria, Arlington, City of Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Leesburg, Manassas, Manassas Park, Prince William County, and Town of Vienna started to rethink, maybe even repeal their meals taxes, then I would question the wisdom of adopting a meals tax. Also, if I had seen poor growth rates in meals away from home expenditures when looking at jurisdictions in Northern Virginia, I’d be more worried about possible harmful industry effects from a meals tax. But I haven’t seen any neighboring jurisdictions consider rolling back their meals taxes. I’m not even aware of any lobbying efforts to change our neighbors’ meals tax status quos. And the growth rate in meals away from home expenditures turns out to be about a percentage higher than the growth rate in real estate assessments, despite the theoretical consequences of a meals tax. So no, I haven’t seen good evidence, a good reason, for opposing a Fairfax County meals tax.

Anonymous wrote:
Wow, an opinion piece behind a paywall. Rents are as high as the market will bear, raising taxes does not give landlord room to raise rents. Conversely, raising taxes or not, if landlord thought they could raise rent, they would.

Really shouldn’t be all that hard to access, even without a subscription to the Washington Post. I pulled up an incognito tab, preventing The Washington Post from seeing that I am a subscriber, and was able to see the short opinion piece with no problem.

Anonymous wrote:
“A meals tax would save Fairfax County residents money compared with raising the same revenues through real estate taxes, thanks largely to the fact that 30% of meals tax revenues would be expected to come from visitors to Fairfax County.”

LOL, give it up.

As an engaged citizen of Fairfax County who wants to see its government adopt smart policies, I am happy to engage in public discussion on matters such as a meals tax where I have something useful to contribute. I am sure that opponents of a meals tax, who really don’t have a good argument against raising revenues in a manner that costs Fairfax County residents less than it would cost them to raise the same revenues through real estate taxes, would be happy for me to shut up with all the facts and logic. But I don’t want to disengage simply because some people, perhaps driven by ideology rather than by any sort of objective analysis, don’t want to hear why a meals tax in Fairfax County makes a lot sense. I am proud to show my support for improving our local government tax base through diversification of revenues which would increase the expected growth in the tax base (food away from home expenditures in Northern Virginia grow about a percentage point higher than real estate assessments), would increase the expected stability of tax revenues (growth in food away from home expenditures in Northern Virginia are poorly correlated with growth in real estate assessments), and that would cost Fairfax County residents less (about 50% for lower-income households and about 25% for higher-income households) than real estate taxes in order to raise equivalent revenues.

Taxes are the price we pay for civilization, and I am happy to help improve how we raise tax revenues. Frankly, I don’t know any good reasons why any supervisor would vote against raising at least some revenues through a meals tax. The only reason I can think of is that it might be good politics to oppose a meals tax, thus placating those who oppose a meals tax, even if it might cost them more because visitors to Fairfax County aren’t contributing 30% to a stream of tax revenue like they would through a meals tax. Then again, good politics does not always correlate with good leadership.

Anonymous wrote:
This. It will probably feature prominently in state wide adds if the council imposes a meals tax a few years after residents say no. Locally, it won't impact anything. State wide, it might swing elections

It has been nearly eight years since the 2016 meals tax referendum. During the dueling campaigns leading up to that referendum, meals tax opponents threw out claims like spaghetti at the wall (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-fairfax-county-voters-really-think-about-taxes-and-spending/2018/03/01/30aa7106-1bda-11e8-98f5-ceecfa8741b6_story.html). For example, some of the people I talked to were absolutely convinced that a meals tax would hurt lower-income households the most, a falsehood that was recently trotted out once again, but that doesn’t accord with the reality that it would cost the lowest-income households half as much to help raise revenues through a meals tax as it would cost them to raise such revenues through real estate taxes.

Anonymous wrote:
I need a raise too. Will the meal tax give me some money?

A meals tax would save Fairfax County residents money compared with raising the same revenues through real estate taxes, thanks largely to the fact that 30% of meals tax revenues would be expected to come from visitors to Fairfax County.

Anonymous wrote:
I cited those pages because there is a project that will include some of the same amenities/function etc and 1 designated area has a special tax district and the other will not. This goes back 9 years and some members of the BOS noted the issue.

Well I appreciate it when anyone, even those who oppose adopting a meals tax, try to back up their assertions with supporting evidence. Too many meals tax opponents throw out wild assertions without support. Unsurprisingly, many of those assertions don’t hold up to even minimal scrutiny.

For example, a post immediately following your claims that Fairfax County raised real estate taxes 10% per year, a rate of increase that would double real estate taxes every seven years and quadruple them every fourteen years. No evidence cited.

The assertion definitely doesn’t hold up looking at the past seven years. For FY2018, aggregate real estate revenues were expected to be $2.4B ( https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/budget/sites/budget/files/Assets/documents/fy2016/adopted/volume1/where_from_pie_chart.pdf). For FY2025, aggregate real estate revenues (i.e., revenues including not only any increases in rates and assessments, but also new and improved properties) are expected to have grown to $3.6B (https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/budget/sites/budget/files/Assets/Documents/fy2025/adopted/overview/Pie%20Chart%20Where%20it%20Comes%20From.pdf). That’s a much more modest annual increase in revenues of 4.5% over a period where, due to some years of higher-inflation, the cost of just maintaining existing government services has gone up more than usual.

If real estate tax revenues continued to grow at that rate—perhaps in part because there are more developments in Fairfax County increasing the stock of taxable properties—it would take sixteen years, not seven, for aggregate real estate tax revenues to double.

Hope you eventually come around on the meals tax. Even if not, thank you for trying to make your case based on objective facts and not based on a caricature of reality.

Anonymous wrote:. . . Meals tax can be 1-6% and est was 6% FX yield 200m. 1 penny of RE tax est yield is 32.5 million so in theory it could reduce RE rates by maybe 1 penny per 1% of meal tax. That would be a benefit but it is highly doubtful that would happen. https://www.vmdo.com/original-mount-vernon-high-school.html

And Reston-Hunter Mill Magisterial District is treated dramatically diffeently so NO to meals tax https://www.restonnow.com/2014/10/02/small-tax-district-5-a-primer/

Not really sure how either of those cited pages supported the arguments presented. Plus, it is unclear why it even matters whether the Board reduces real estate taxes as to whether a meals tax makes sense. As noted, a 1% meals tax is worth approximately 1¢ of the real estate tax rate ($50 a year for a home values at $500k). Every dollar raised through a meals tax is a dollar that isn’t being raised by increasing the real estate tax, like the Board did after the 2016 meals tax referendum failed (the Board was probably getting tired of governing a county with a crumbling infrastructure, significantly reduced services, and insufficient funds to readily attract and retain a quality work force).

Those who would want a meals tax, in whole or in part, to be used to reduce the real estate tax rate should make that position and express support for a meals tax contingent on the Board reducing the real estate tax rate. But just opposing the meals tax without any reason beyond speculation about what the Board might or might not so seems to be communicating that one doesn’t care to have a say in how meals tax revenues might be used.

Anonymous wrote:
It’s mainly (or almost entirely) from data center tax revenue. The meals tax does not generate a meaningful amount of revenue in comparison. Data center related tax revenue for the current fiscal year will be close to $200M including both the personal property and real property taxes. The schools receive around 57% of this money.

2.7% of revenues (from Prince William’s meals tax) with an increase of $10M from FY2024-2025 is still something, especially since a portion of those revenues come from visitors to Prince William County. And it is a good reminder that in Northern Virginia, Fairfax County and Loudoun County are the last hold outs when it comes to a Meals Tax, meaning that residents of these counties who visit other jurisdictions in Northern Virginia (e.g., commuters) pay meals taxes that help support neighboring governments, but don’t get anything in return from visitors from those nearby jurisdictions to Fairfax County.

The data center taxation issue is actually rather interesting as it literally represents having raised taxes in a manner that affects a single industry. https://www.insidenova.com/headlines/prince-william-county-hikes-data-center-taxes-while-cutting-homeowners-rate/article_8f5a8f76-0259-11ef-b71c-cf647816343e.html. One of the argument levied against adopting a meals tax is that it is a “single-industry tax.”

Personally, I think opposing a tax solely because it is a “single-industry tax” is mindlessly ideological as it ignores any practical impacts of adopting or failing to adopt such a tax. Plus, a meals tax really isn’t a tax on restaurants; rather, it’s a modest tax on patron expenditures, with the restaurants serving as trustees for the collected taxes.

The Prince William County increase in taxation rates for data centers is also interesting because apparently the increase merely brought Prince William County’s taxes for data centers more in line with its neighbors, resulting in benefits for the county and its residents (including the flexibility to lower the real estate tax rate).

That’s what adopting a Meals Tax in Fairfax County would be doing: bringing our taxation policy more in line with our neighbors, resulting in benefits such as increased tax revenue stability, sharing the tax burden with visitors to Fairfax County, and raising revenues to fund our local government at less cost to Fairfax County residents than using real estate taxes to raise those same revenues. Opposing a Meals Tax means giving up on those benefits. Thus, I think the Board of Supervisors should only refuse to adopt a meals tax if there is a really good reason, supported by real evidence and not just speculation, for opposing adoption of a meals tax.

Anonymous wrote:Could you explain how our household paying a meals tax whenever we get take out or go to a restaurant would result in our household saving money? I'm not following the math.

The savings comes from visitors to Fairfax County contributing 30% of the meals tax revenues. That means to raise $1 of tax revenue, Fairfax County residents would only have to pay 70¢ in taxes. To raise the equivalent $1 through real estate taxes, Fairfax County residents and businesses would have to pay $1 in taxes.

Anonymous wrote:
Only a liberal would claim that paying more in taxes is a "savings". You're starting from the false assumption that FCPS needs more funding. It does not.

Three things:

First, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said, “taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.” It makes sense to debate how taxes are raised and how much taxes are raised (although, given that taxes are driven by spending, and not the other way around, it makes more sense to debate spending priorities). But taxes really shouldn’t be treated as some kind of evil that needs to be stamped out.

Second, as Republican Congressman Dusty Johnson said about promoting civil public debate (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/07/28/politics-civility-respect-dusty-johnson/):

Give others the benefit of the doubt: Relationships fail when couples stop seeing the best in each other. If our country is to stay together a while longer, for the sake of our kids, we can’t assume that people on the other side of the aisle are always motivated by racism, fascism, communism or some other evil-ism. Assume, instead, that they view an issue differently than you do.

Attacking a position because one sees it as representing liberalism really does little to promote civil public debate.

Third, mathematically a meals tax would provide savings for Fairfax County residents compared with raising the same revenues through real estate taxes. The comparative savings would not come out of nowhere, of course. Rather, the savings for Fairfax County residents would come from our visitors to Fairfax County, such as tourists and commuters, who would be expected to contribute about 30% of the meals tax revenues raised. For lower-income households, this means that raising revenue through a meals tax costs about half what it would cost raising those same revenues through real estate taxes. But other households would benefit as well. Even the highest-income households would only pay about 75% as much in meals taxes to raise the same revenues as a they would pay through real estate taxes.

Most of those visitors paying a meals tax would be our neighbors. But really, a Fairfax Meals Tax would be about reciprocation, not about gouging. Alexandria, Arlington, City of Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Leesburg, Manassas, Manassas Park, Prince William County, and Town of Vienna all have a meals tax in place (several for decades). So Fairfax County residents who have eaten out in these jurisdictions have helped fill their government coffers. A Fairfax County Meals Tax would finally enable their citizens to reciprocate.

Anonymous wrote:
I posted about IB and FX tax rates per zones. FX meals tax would not diversify but rather supplant existing taxes.

It would be up to the Board of Supervisors to determine whether a Meals Tax would both diversify any partially supplant real estate taxes or merely diversify tax revenues. I really don’t know what they will do, if anything, once they get County Executive Hill’s report. If you have ideas, definitely bring them to the attention of your supervisor and/or the chair (or even the County Executive if you think they would be material to his report on how to diversify the tax base).

Anonymous wrote:

jvmorgan wrote:
Again, I am not an expert on Prince William County. But since discussion had touched on the Prince William County real estate tax rate, I thought it would be relevant to point out that Prince William County joined Alexandria, Arlington, City of Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Leesburg, Manassas, Manassas Park, Town of Vienna in adopting a meals tax, making it the latest county in Northern Virginia to use a meals tax to diversify its tax base.

Is this suggesting meal tax in lieu of real estate tax? I find that hard to believe. I pay mover 2x in taxes from 2018. They raise it every year beyond a merit increase at work. No way they don’t hit us again with more.

“Diversify” not “supplant.”

Your post highlights an important advantage of a meals tax: it is based on what your household chooses to spend (which even with inflation, is unlikely to spike significantly beyond what your household would likely spend given your household’s income) rather than on the market value of your home (which can fluctuate for reasons outside your control). Jurisdictions that have a meals tax also appear to modify their real estate tax rates more slowly. So the combination of a real estate tax and meals tax would likely create more predictably, not just for the Fairfax County in terms of revenues, but also for households in terms of costs.

Anonymous wrote:
Interesting. But does PWC have equitable taxes, fees, services based on addresses or zones?

Again, I am not an expert on Prince William County. But since discussion had touched on the Prince William County real estate tax rate, I thought it would be relevant to point out that Prince William County joined Alexandria, Arlington, City of Fairfax, Falls Church, Herndon, Leesburg, Manassas, Manassas Park, Town of Vienna in adopting a meals tax, making it the latest county in Northern Virginia to use a meals tax to diversify its tax base.

Anonymous wrote:
When we get home from a long day and picking up kids, most of the time we pick up food bc there isn’t time to cook. So now they want to put more tax burden on those where both parents work. It’s not discretionary, it’s how we can maintain our house with so much to juggle.

I remember hearing this argument a lot in 2016. Usually in the third-person, but sometimes in the first person. I sympathize, of course. I have kids and sometimes none of the adults have the energy to fix them something to eat. Fortunately, they’ve old enough that we can get away with telling them to fix something for themselves. But younger kids . . . meh.

Anyway, regardless of whether a household tries to mitigate a meals tax by preparing meals at home more often, or just has to pay that additional marginal expense for meals they just don’t have the energy to make for themselves, a meals tax provides savings for Fairfax County residents compared with raising the same revenues through real estate taxes.

Visitors to Fairfax County would be expected to contribute to about 30% of the revenues generated. What this means is savings across the board for Fairfax County residents (at the expense of visitors to Fairfax County (sorry)). For lower-income households (those with incomes below $30k), a meals tax would cost about half as much as the real estate tax would cost in order to generate the same revenue. For upper-income households ($200k or more), a meals tax would cost about 75% the cost of equivalent real estate taxes.

Of course, if the contribution from visitors turned out to be less than 30%, those savings would be reduced. But even if only 5% of revenues came from visitors to Fairfax County, upper-income households would break even and lower-income households would realize savings relative to the equivalent in generating revenue through real estate taxes.

Anonymous wrote:
Many people live in PWC because they don't deal with the BS in Fairfax. It's more balanced politically and not completely run by tax and spend leftists. PWC actually cut the property tax rate this year, unlike Fairfax.

I certainly do not profess to be an expert on Prince William County, its politics, or its budget. But I do know they started collecting a meals tax (“food and beverage tax”) in 2022. https://www.pwcva.gov/assets/2022-06/MealsTax_TaxpayerBrochure_FINAL_5-27_Web.pdf I also know that they projected this tax would bring in 2.7% ($42,000,000) of their FY2025 revenues. https://www.pwcva.gov/assets/2024-07/FY2025_Budget.pdf This is an increase of 31.25% over what they had projected ($32,000,000) for FY2024.

It’s possible that the additional revenue from a meals tax—not to mention the increased certainty after seeing it implemented for a few years—may have helped Prince William County in its decision to lower the real estate tax rate.