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Anonymous wrote:
I read the NYT article first, without reading anything else prior, and I came out of it Team Dorland, with maybe some reservations, as in: "unless there's some info missing, I'm on Dawn's side."
So I think there was enough there, because I wasn't predisposed, though I might have biases.
THEN, I read all the other stuff and I was like, holy hell, what upside-down hell are we living in, that Sonya Effing Larson is treated as a victim when she 1) plagiarized and 2) was a horrible human being? I went from Team Dorland with reservations to Team Dorland and mad as hell.
+1
Anonymous wrote:I was appalled when I heard about this story and sided with Dawn, but damn when I read her posts about her donation my eyes roll back so far in my head it hurts.
I would have had a very hard time not being sarcastic to her. Maybe my problem is I know too many women who do charity for attention. One message she sent to Sonya she talked about attending a charity function with Jayne Seymore and being so proud that the doctor who took her kidney mentioned her kidney "just gushing urine". Ugh.
I would have stopped talking to her and avoided her but I know I would have made comments to a mutual friend about her. In any group I've been in there would be at least one adult who would shut the nastiness down so we would only go on so long.
No one in that group admitted that they were the ones doing the stalking. What an empty echo chamber they were.
The difference being that there are people in your friend groups willing to be the bigger person!
Look, some people are just annoying. But that feeling of "Ugh, not again" is just not the same as white hot hatred. Why did it go so far for these people?
Ok, I'm on page 99 of the Scribd "Document 107" and I am just completely laughing at how they couldn't understand why the book festival being cancelled was newsworthy and decided it was a conspiracy with Dawn.
"And I'll ask my lawyer about detailing more of Dawn's behavior--I must say that I said that before in my interview, and the reporter didn't seem very interested. It was weird." --Sonya
YES SONYA, so weird that a reporter didn't want to know why you personally find Dawn ick as a response to the allegations that you plagiarized. LOL.
"And I'll ask my lawyer about detailing more of Dawn's behavior--I must say that I said that before in my interview, and the reporter didn't seem very interested. It was weird." --Sonya
YES SONYA, so weird that a reporter didn't want to know why you personally find Dawn ick as a response to the allegations that you plagiarized. LOL.
Anonymous wrote:
No writing group is being lost. They are okay with this behavior, and they've squarely got Larsen's back.
You're probably right, but at least for the time being, they are probably scrambling to figure out which mode of communication would actually be safe. So out of self-interest they may be afraid to communicate with one another. I even saw references to their Slack in the court docs I was able to find.
There's no honor among thieves -- something will give sooner or later.
Anonymous wrote:
An ironic end would be Sonya Larson, depressed and desperate for penance and public rehabilitation ... decides to donate a kidney!
Hahahahaha.
That may be the only thing she could do to right this ship at this point! I would laugh, but I would also clap for the person getting their new kidney!
I'm really not about anybody being "cancelled" -- I think their just desserts are having their actions exposed. I do think they've caused harm to the disabled community with their dismissal of life-saving organ donation, and they should work hard to remedy that.
One thing that really drew me to this story was how I relate to Dawn's trying to repair her fractured relationship with Sonya. I once had a situation where I was obviously the aggrieved party, where a stranger really did me dirty, but most people would have advised not to contact the person who hurt me so as not to "give her any power." But to me, asking for a small, concrete act by this person to help put things right really meant a lot to me, and they were grateful for the chance to do so. If they weren't willing, or were too buried in shame, I would have had to accept that. It's not getting away with it just because you don't lose every single thing in your life over your bad choice. You have to wrestle with that and find a way to look yourself in the mirror again.
I would not be surprised if these has been some of the hardest days of Sonya Larson's life. She was so deeply invested in the narrative of her being the aggrieved party, and she leaned on friends to bolster that POV whenever she felt it slipping. Now the rug has been pulled and they've all been exposed. She's branded a bully and a plagiarist, and her safe space of her BFF writing group is falling apart. I'm not saying she's the victim, but it's possible (and I think important for my humanity) to keep the humanity of people in mind at all times. That's something Dawn continued to do even she was gaslit and bullied, and that's why there's so much sympathy for her. She never fought fire with fire.
One thing that really drew me to this story was how I relate to Dawn's trying to repair her fractured relationship with Sonya. I once had a situation where I was obviously the aggrieved party, where a stranger really did me dirty, but most people would have advised not to contact the person who hurt me so as not to "give her any power." But to me, asking for a small, concrete act by this person to help put things right really meant a lot to me, and they were grateful for the chance to do so. If they weren't willing, or were too buried in shame, I would have had to accept that. It's not getting away with it just because you don't lose every single thing in your life over your bad choice. You have to wrestle with that and find a way to look yourself in the mirror again.
I would not be surprised if these has been some of the hardest days of Sonya Larson's life. She was so deeply invested in the narrative of her being the aggrieved party, and she leaned on friends to bolster that POV whenever she felt it slipping. Now the rug has been pulled and they've all been exposed. She's branded a bully and a plagiarist, and her safe space of her BFF writing group is falling apart. I'm not saying she's the victim, but it's possible (and I think important for my humanity) to keep the humanity of people in mind at all times. That's something Dawn continued to do even she was gaslit and bullied, and that's why there's so much sympathy for her. She never fought fire with fire.
Anonymous wrote:Photolaw at aol.com? You can't make this up.
OMG, I hadn't caught that! SMH!
Where do you access the court docs?
Has anyone else keyword searched their own texts to make sure they're not more Sonya than they know? 
I discovered that I have not ever said, "F*** so and so." I have used it as an adjective to describe a situation. I have a couple of friends who do say it in a group chat, and sometimes I will be like, "Well obviously I have reason not to be a fan of that person who has literally harassed me, but also I know that hatred just hurts me so I aim for indifference." Or sometimes I let it go because I'm mad in the moment too, or because no one wants someone to lecture them all the time. But I suppose if these conversations were subpoenaed I would feel like I was guilty of cattyness too.
I thought of another situation recently where in a group of friends who were ostensibly coming together for support, one friend kept singling out another. To make a long story short, I stood up to the bully, and she turned on me, but then apologized and said I was right the next day (not that I doubted it!). If one person isn't safe in a group, then no one is safe. I feel like I'm the person who has to say the hard things because no one else can handle it, or maybe they just convince me of that to get out of it themselves. During a contentious local issue in which people kept using white privilege to hoard public goods, my friends kept saying, "Oh, someone should talk to the news! Oh, someone should start a petition!" but they were all "too afraid" to do it, so I did. It's not that I don't care what others think, but I think I care less than the average person, and that helps in these situations. If I believe I'm right, I'm OK with others thinking I'm wrong. But maybe that's not common.
I discovered that I have not ever said, "F*** so and so." I have used it as an adjective to describe a situation. I have a couple of friends who do say it in a group chat, and sometimes I will be like, "Well obviously I have reason not to be a fan of that person who has literally harassed me, but also I know that hatred just hurts me so I aim for indifference." Or sometimes I let it go because I'm mad in the moment too, or because no one wants someone to lecture them all the time. But I suppose if these conversations were subpoenaed I would feel like I was guilty of cattyness too.
I thought of another situation recently where in a group of friends who were ostensibly coming together for support, one friend kept singling out another. To make a long story short, I stood up to the bully, and she turned on me, but then apologized and said I was right the next day (not that I doubted it!). If one person isn't safe in a group, then no one is safe. I feel like I'm the person who has to say the hard things because no one else can handle it, or maybe they just convince me of that to get out of it themselves. During a contentious local issue in which people kept using white privilege to hoard public goods, my friends kept saying, "Oh, someone should talk to the news! Oh, someone should start a petition!" but they were all "too afraid" to do it, so I did. It's not that I don't care what others think, but I think I care less than the average person, and that helps in these situations. If I believe I'm right, I'm OK with others thinking I'm wrong. But maybe that's not common.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.
Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.
I can give Imani a pass because Sonya purposely framed it as a white woman oppressing a WOC; she has a right to be triggered by that. Should she do more research? Sure, but anyone can say anything on Twitter. I stopped following her because she tweets so much, lol. She has over half a million tweets! So I didn't see this.
Anonymous wrote:shan1212 wrote:A Chunky Monkey, Becky Tuch, apologizes and announces she has left the group: https://twitter.com/BeckyLTuch/status/1447603792804032512
I feel like some of her tweets are contradictory:
"I want to say on record that I always loved this story. I was proud of Sonya for writing it, thrilled to see it getting recognition I felt it deserved."
"I did not participate in any discussion of this story, until it was finally published."
"My understanding of the legal issues was superficial."
"Everything I have ever said to her in email or elsewhere was with the understanding that I was supporting my wonderful and talented friend through a truly awful situation."I owe Dawn Dorland an apology. I’m sorry for the role I played here. I’m sorry I didn’t make a greater attempt to learn her side of the story. And most of all, I am sorry I did not intervene to de-fuse a situation that I believe did not have to come to this."
So did she leave in 2013 and have no knowledge of the story or was she involved and supporting this all along? Now I want to search documents for her.
If you look at the top of this email chain, there's Becky Tuch saying "f*** DFD."
https://twitter.com/loveindiebooks/status/1447607425293438983
A Chunky Monkey, Becky Tuch, apologizes and announces she has left the group: https://twitter.com/BeckyLTuch/status/1447603792804032512
Anonymous wrote:I’m overly invested too, PP. I really enjoyed the parts of the video I skimmed through, and I love that artist communities like Surel’s place exist. She did seem more socially savvy than I was expecting from the stories, and definitely comes across as warm and friendly. Kind of funny to me that she was dragged for being a narcissist as most writers I’ve met fall at least somewhat in that camp and all the “Chunky Monkey” (shudder) group clearly do.
I think she's just guilty of being honest and transparent. According to the imaginary handbook of how to look cool and indifferent, you're supposed to hide the fact that you want friends to support you. You're supposed to hide the fact that you are proud of yourself for something hard to benefit a stranger. It's like Dawn has pulled back the curtain and it makes others who spend a lot of time curating an image that doesn't reflect their true self deeply uncomfortable. Enraged, even. She is no more narcissistic than the average person; she just admits to the parts of herself that are without obfuscation or deflection.
Anonymous wrote:I'm ashamed that I'm here yet again, invested as I as the day before.
I found this video with Dawn Dorland that I found so insightful. She does a reading of the book she's working on (I sort of skimmed that part), but there's an interview at the end, particularly from 50:54 to the end that I found really interesting, where she talks about being an outcast growing up. Actually hearing her voice, I'm further of the belief that her NYT characterization does a huge disservice to her. Yes, I can see and hear why people might think she's overly earnest, overly sunny, but nothing to write home about? I honestly would be like, "Oh, what a really sincere person. Maybe a bit intense, but nice." And then honestly, just move on. Seriously. I meet people who are plenty more annoying or more obnoxious on the daily. Of course, this is just a tiny tidbit, but she comes off more socially capable and emotionally intelligent than I would have initially guessed.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It makes sense that someone who has experienced how cruel bullying is would not bond with others over ganging up on someone. And so because we [general we for people when meeting someone like her] can't talk smack with her, we talk smack about her.
I am totally invested as well and have that feeling that maybe I should be embarrassed, but I think I will take a page from Dawn Dorland's book and not pretend that I'm something that I'm not. I find this interesting, and if anyone thinks that's weird, well, they don't have to talk with me about it. Life would be a lot simpler, and kinder, if we didn't expect people to edit themselves to please us.
I've been fascinated by this case and discovered many interesting tidbits by reading this thread. It's nice to find an old-school forum like there used to be "back in the day."
I can relate to Dawn in her earnestness. I know that my life is marked by privilege in many ways, and I try not to rub it in people's faces, but I assume that the few good friends I have are happy for me and not stewing in jealousy or resentment. No one is forcing you to be my friend, after all.
I have a friend/acquaintance that I suspect is very much like Dawn. We run a chapter doing activism together, and I can't put my finger on why we have never become closer friends. We are literally the two people doing the most for our chosen cause in our community and yet . . . we are just out of sync. I have friends who have disparaged her. One said, "She's so cute that I think she gets away with a lot." OK, but still so very vague, right? I think there's just something about her earnestness, even for me, a self-identified earnest person, that grates. But this is not a fatal flaw, and when I complain about her, it's only about how she always forgets to include me on communications and then is befuddled when I don't know what is going on. I tell people, "She's a wonderful person; we just don't mesh for some reason."
What strikes me about this case is how many people seem to think that lying and plagiarizing is OK if you don't like the person. If I have a friend complaining that they can't meet any decent people, I point out that you get to choose the kind of people you let into your life. There are so many good people out there . . . just think about where they are going to be found. They'll be donating their time, spreading awareness, building community, working on self-actualization.
But if you none of your friends do that stuff, then I suppose you think it's normal just to sh*t talk people for trying to make the world better and to lie when the heat is on you. Still, I don't get why people would look at Sonya's web of lies and think, but she was triggered by this annoying lady! So that makes it OK to keep digging and digging and digging? I agree with the assessment that perhaps Celeste Ng, with her cachet, made Sonya feel emboldened. I felt there was something sniveling about the way Sonya kept pretending in her texts to feel bad just so that her friends would say, "No! She deserves it! F*** DFD!"
As a woman, I do want to be careful that I'm not holding women to a higher standard than men. A lot of artists live unconventional lives, right? It kind of goes with the territory. Were people in the 50s saying, "But is Hemingway NICE?" That said, I've read one and a half of Ng's books. Didn't love the first and couldn't finish the second. So I'm not going to be running out to buy whatever comes out next. Same with Larson; I read The Kindest linked here and, indeed, the prose is bad.
I can relate to Dawn in her earnestness. I know that my life is marked by privilege in many ways, and I try not to rub it in people's faces, but I assume that the few good friends I have are happy for me and not stewing in jealousy or resentment. No one is forcing you to be my friend, after all.
I have a friend/acquaintance that I suspect is very much like Dawn. We run a chapter doing activism together, and I can't put my finger on why we have never become closer friends. We are literally the two people doing the most for our chosen cause in our community and yet . . . we are just out of sync. I have friends who have disparaged her. One said, "She's so cute that I think she gets away with a lot." OK, but still so very vague, right? I think there's just something about her earnestness, even for me, a self-identified earnest person, that grates. But this is not a fatal flaw, and when I complain about her, it's only about how she always forgets to include me on communications and then is befuddled when I don't know what is going on. I tell people, "She's a wonderful person; we just don't mesh for some reason."
What strikes me about this case is how many people seem to think that lying and plagiarizing is OK if you don't like the person. If I have a friend complaining that they can't meet any decent people, I point out that you get to choose the kind of people you let into your life. There are so many good people out there . . . just think about where they are going to be found. They'll be donating their time, spreading awareness, building community, working on self-actualization.
But if you none of your friends do that stuff, then I suppose you think it's normal just to sh*t talk people for trying to make the world better and to lie when the heat is on you. Still, I don't get why people would look at Sonya's web of lies and think, but she was triggered by this annoying lady! So that makes it OK to keep digging and digging and digging? I agree with the assessment that perhaps Celeste Ng, with her cachet, made Sonya feel emboldened. I felt there was something sniveling about the way Sonya kept pretending in her texts to feel bad just so that her friends would say, "No! She deserves it! F*** DFD!"
As a woman, I do want to be careful that I'm not holding women to a higher standard than men. A lot of artists live unconventional lives, right? It kind of goes with the territory. Were people in the 50s saying, "But is Hemingway NICE?" That said, I've read one and a half of Ng's books. Didn't love the first and couldn't finish the second. So I'm not going to be running out to buy whatever comes out next. Same with Larson; I read The Kindest linked here and, indeed, the prose is bad.