What is the most important element: class size, peer group, location, test scores?

[Anonymous]

Forgive me for posing a broad, basic, question, but I was just locked out of all my out-of-boundary choices in DC, a private school is not an option financially, and I'm deciding where to move with my four-year old daughter. We're currently in downtown DC.

I've visited a few schools, in NW DC and in Maryland, and as others have written elsewhere, it's easy to fall for canned speeches and/or the appearance of the building. I'm trying to think rationally about what is best for me and for her. I'd welcome all thoughts. Here are a few of mine, in random order:

1. Commute: Convenience was a factor for me in choosing her daycare, and she's in a convenient spot, with good teachers and a nice peer group in a dark basement. Moving to Maryland would make my commute to work much lengthier, which would cut into our time together. How important is this??

2. Teachers: How can you judge? Plus the "great" ones might retire the summer before we enroll.

3. Condition of the building: I use this as a surrogate for budget, atmosphere, "class" of school, no pun intended--the financial condition of the school and its maintenance. Fair? Unfair?

4. My daughter needs to run around. (She's four and her current pre-school doesn't have much of a playground). I'm gravitating towards schools with new or neato playgrounds. How stupid is THAT?

5. Peer group: When you step over the DC line into Friendship Heights/Bethesda, the schools seem to become almost lily white. (Is this perception accurate?) I was raised in segregated DC, and would like some diversity, but frankly it's not my top priority.

I hope I haven't offended anyone--I'm new to this kind of decision and discussion. I attended Lafayette School, and remember large classes (40 kids per class) and old, tired teachers. Obviously, things have changed. I'm open to any guidance. Right now I'm leaning towards Maryland, because we could probably go straight through high school in the public school system. I attended private schools in DC for middle and high schools--I think my grandparents paid.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is for kids this young. Why not just attend the school in your neighborhood? I would favor easy commute and more time with my daughter over a top notch kindergarten.

Having said all of that, I'm ignorant to the DC school lottery and how that works so I may not be adding anything constructive to this discussion. I just know that I attended crap schools in a small town, so my expectations for DD's future school are very low (you have a gym AND a cafeteria! Amazing!)

[Anonymous]

We're in the same both so I cant answer your questions but I just wanted to say, great questions! Very thought provoking. I'm going to consider them.

[Anonymous]

You didn't mention what I consider the #1 factor, far ahead of the other good factors you raise.

#6 -- Does this school enroll a group of kids who are ready to learn, well supported at home, who get the help they need from $ therapists if they have, say, ADHD. Do they likely come from homes where the parent reads? Do they likely come from homes where the parent drags them to Target at 10 pm?

You mentioned lily white 20816 and I agree. They're white AND you could answer "yes" to the above questions re: that student body. However, I think that there are some white/black schools such as Eaton and Lafayette where you could also answer "yes."

Then there are some diverse schools, which is something that sounds a little bit important to you, where I believe the answer is a resounding "no", as in, No, these kids are coming to school every day and they're not ready to learn and they don't get support at home. THAT affects your well-supported kid in the classroom, whether people care to admit that or not.

[Anonymous]

I'm not the OP but I, too, find the questions interesting and relevant! To 15:40, what do you look for to indicate that? Is that just socio-economic status of the feeder area?

[Anonymous]

Jeff will probably move this thread the Schools forum. So don't be surprised if it disappears from the General Discussion forum.

I think the most important element is a high quality principal who sets the bar high and attracts and keeps highly skilled teachers. A good principal and good teachers usually can still do a good job when the other factors are taxing. But yes, if too many factors are negative (class size too big, peer group too toxic, location not convenient) then it can become trying even with the best of teachers.

We were in your position a few years ago when our eldest was 4. We didn't get into any of our OOB choices but we and some of our friends got calls for public spots that became available as late as mid-August. We accepted a spot at a so-so elementary school that really wasn't worth the drive. I wish we had kept our DC at daycare for one more year. It would have been much less stress. We tried the lottery again the following year for K, both public and charters. Didn't get in anywhere. So we moved. All of our friends, after 2 lottery attempts, got into a DC public or charter school that made them happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Forgive me for posing a broad, basic, question, but I was just locked out of all my out-of-boundary choices in DC, a private school is not an option financially, and I'm deciding where to move with my four-year old daughter. We're currently in downtown DC.

I've visited a few schools, in NW DC and in Maryland, and as others have written elsewhere, it's easy to fall for canned speeches and/or the appearance of the building. I'm trying to think rationally about what is best for me and for her. I'd welcome all thoughts. Here are a few of mine, in random order:

1. Commute: Convenience was a factor for me in choosing her daycare, and she's in a convenient spot, with good teachers and a nice peer group in a dark basement. Moving to Maryland would make my commute to work much lengthier, which would cut into our time together. How important is this??

For me this is key, I hate to commute. Sitting in my car or the metro for more that 30-40 minutes drives me nuts.

2. Teachers: How can you judge? Plus the "great" ones might retire the summer before we enroll.

You will have no control over this, plus no way to really objectively judge the teachers until you are in the school. There is a K teacher at my daughter's elementary school that all my friends told me that I would hate, but I happen to really like her, go figure.

3. Condition of the building: I use this as a surrogate for budget, atmosphere, "class" of school, no pun intended--the financial condition of the school and its maintenance. Fair? Unfair?

Unfair, as long as it is clean and there are no safety issue, I would not worry about it. Go take a look at Janney.

4. My daughter needs to run around. (She's four and her current pre-school doesn't have much of a playground). I'm gravitating towards schools with new or neato playgrounds. How stupid is THAT?

For a 4 yo this would also be high on my list, would not care if it were new or neato so long as there was space with swings, slides and monkey bars. Trust me, you kid will not care.

5. Peer group: When you step over the DC line into Friendship Heights/Bethesda, the schools seem to become almost lily white. (Is this perception accurate?) I was raised in segregated DC, and would like some diversity, but frankly it's not my top priority.

I hope I haven't offended anyone--I'm new to this kind of decision and discussion. I attended Lafayette School, and remember large classes (40 kids per class) and old, tired teachers. Obviously, things have changed. I'm open to any guidance. Right now I'm leaning towards Maryland, because we could probably go straight through high school in the public school system. I attended private schools in DC for middle and high schools--I think my grandparents paid.

[Anonymous]

This is all very helpful, thanks. To respond to the person who asked why I just don't send my lovely, sensitive daughter (who has some special needs) to our local public school: because I've visited our local public school to arrange for services for my daughter. We play on its playground, and it feels and looks like a prison. With a playground.

In that sense, I've decided what is most important: the peer group. And my local public school doesn't offer a peer group with which I'm comfortable. A friend of mine of mine moved to another state because her son was hassled there because (she says) he was white.

[Anonymous]

My child is in 2nd grade and I am thinking ahead to middle school. If we move her in the next year or so, I do not want to move her again anytime soon. It is a big change for them to have to make new friends and meet new teachers, etc.

The commute is important, in my opinion. Don't spend the time in the car if you don't have to.

I look at the middle school and high school stats. I look at scores, percentage passing/finishing and incidents of violence. I place the violence stats above everything else because kids can't learn well in an environment where it is common.

[Anonymous]

Shortening the commute time is very important, in my opinion.

Where exactly do you work? Depending on where your office is downtown, Arlington could be a better choice than Maryland.

Specifically, the Courthouse/Clarendon neighborhoods feed to the Key/Science Focus/Taylor elementary schools, which are all wonderful. Highly ranked and much beloved by parents.

Key School offers a Spanish immersion program, which gets excellent reviews. It also has a big and fun playground. DD loves it! I believe Key and Science Focus are fairly diverse. Taylor less so.

Also, if you're thinking about an apartment or townhouse, there are a bunch near Key where you could walk your child to school and then hop on the orange line metro for work. Lots of restaurants etc. nearby and plenty of kids and families among the young professional types. It's a great mix.

A few more pluses: Income taxes in VA are less than DC and MD, so you'd save some $$$ there. And all the elementary schools I mentioned feed into excellent middle schools and high schools, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1. Commute: Convenience was a factor for me in choosing her daycare, and she's in a convenient spot, with good teachers and a nice peer group in a dark basement. Moving to Maryland would make my commute to work much lengthier, which would cut into our time together. How important is this??

This could be very important, especially if you don't have much flexibility at work. You may also want to look at before/after school care options either housed at the school or that pick/up drop off. The hours of the school might also be important. Some elementary schools start as late as 9:15 and others as early as 8:30.

2. Teachers: How can you judge? Plus the "great" ones might retire the summer before we enroll.
One thing you might look at is how long teachers stay at a school. If teachers are changing schools frequently, it is usually b/c they are unhappy. If teachers are staying they are usually well supported and happy where they are... and better able to do their job. (Periodically, it's b/c they are not good teachers and can get away with it there, but if this is the case other things you'll probably know it from other things). You are exactly right to not limit your thinking and go to a specific school b/c of one or two specific teachers, you never know what might happen over the summer.

3. Condition of the building: I use this as a surrogate for budget, atmosphere, "class" of school, no pun intended--the financial condition of the school and its maintenance. Fair? Unfair?
Somewhat fair. I'd place more emphasis on cleanliness and safety issues over "newness". Typically good principals have a good staff, including janitorial staff. Additionally, it is difficult to teach if you are constantly moving around to avoid leaks or always freezing. (I've been there, done that.. instruction takes a backseat when your basic needs aren't met).

4. My daughter needs to run around. (She's four and her current pre-school doesn't have much of a playground). I'm gravitating towards schools with new or neato playgrounds. How stupid is THAT?
More important than the actual play space is the philosophy of the school. Some schools don't go outside for recess when the temperature (w/windchill) is below freezing... this winter that meant weeks upon weeks of indoor recess. Many public schools limit recess to just 25 minutes, even for primary students, conversely, I know of a private school in DC that has outdoor recess unless it is pouring rain and usually have a minimum of two recesses a day. In some schools the emphasis is on instruction and having kids be "ahead" even in K, in others there is more emphasis on developing social skills and giving students a wide variety of experiences.

5. Peer group: When you step over the DC line into Friendship Heights/Bethesda, the schools seem to become almost lily white. (Is this perception accurate?) I was raised in segregated DC, and would like some diversity, but frankly it's not my top priority.
I think this is a personal choice. Some schools have ethnic diversity, but little socioeconomic diversity, whereas others can be very diverse on both counts. I have taught in schools where there are only 4 or 5 white students in the entire grade level and a child could be the only white child in his/her class. I think this would be tough, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if there were a peer group of kids with like interests (and families w/similar values) but it is a very personal choice.

Other things to consider: curriculum, rigor (do you want to push academics early?), school year (year round schools, lengths of vacations), how close other kids live to schools (how far will you have to drive for birthday parties/playdates).

Just some thoughts from a public school teacher, step-parent of a private school student, and parent who is already thinking about things for her toddler b/c our "local" school has not made AYP for a few years and has a terrible reputation. I'm not where you are yet, but I've already started thinking...

[Anonymous]

Most of the Arlington schools are great and almost all of them are diverse (some of the North Arlington schools are pretty white).

[Anonymous]

I think it is hard to find a school that has it all. I think with schools, having a strong principal is key. When I was younger, I never really got the whole leadership emphasis in the business world. But after so many years in the working world, I realize you need that person that has the vision and sets up the conditions that allows the people that work for them to really do well at their jobs. That type of principal really builds a team. You want to feel like the school team could handle any challenges that come their way and are willing to work with the parents. However, you know even that great principal may retire or move to another school so you can't hang your hat on that attribute.

With commute, that would be important to me but more from the standpoint of what is the maximum commute that I could find reasonable as I am searching for schools. Of course I would like the one closest, but maybe I could go up to 20 minutes out of my way if I thought the school would offer something that a school around the corner couldn't. For me, even if a job a school or whatever is the greatest thing since sliced bread, a long commute would at some point threaten to outweight the good. Also, it leaves less time for the family time where you relax, talk about your day, play a board game, act silly or whatever. When your child looks back on their childhood - it is the family time they will remember, not so much the classtime at a school.

Peer group, class, size, and test scores - I look at test scores but it isn't the end all in itself. As someone mentioned before - I would look at the suspension/violence statistics. That would be a non-negotiable. With test scores, I would take the school with pretty good but not maybe "the top" test scores out of all the schools if I believed the school could give me something a school with higher test scores couldn't. I would look at a magnet program or theme program like arts integression or French immersion for example that I could go for even if the scores are slightly lower than the top ones for the district. Also, as a minority - I would take the school that is more diverse so my kids have a better social fit over one with less diversity and higher test scores. At the same time, in the higher grades, I would be disturbed if I saw that all the non-honor classes had most of the diversity and the honors and AP classes were not. I transferred/moved to a high school that was 30% non-white and my dad couldn't believe I had not made friends of my same background - I tried to explain that in my honors classes I could count on one hand how many people I met with my same background. Then again, I had my HS guidance counselor try to talk me out of taking all honor classes ("are you sure it won't be too much?") and tell me my college choice was a stretch but that I may have a chance because I was in a minority group. Sigh. It was a good thing I came from a top private school and had the guidance counselor there tell me that I had a good chance to X schools early entrance if I could stay one more year.

[Anonymous]

The most important thing to your child, in Kindergarten , will be his or her teacher. But you have very little control over that, or knowledge as to who will be his or her teacher any given year.

So the best things to look for, if you can see them, are a good, responsive principal who cares not just about academics but about children's emotions. You can get a good sense my listening to the principal talk at an open house, by talking with parents, and by meeting with the principal. The biggest issue comes if there is some kind of problem in school, and you need a principal to care about your child, not just about test scores.

The other thing to look for is a good peer group of parents. See if you can visit some events in the evening, or better yet go to a PTA meeting. A healthy, active, vibrant PTA group means parents who have energy and are committed to a good school. That is better than the alternative.

[Anonymous]

I agree that the peer group and teacher are the most important things in ES. You can't really control either as they can vary from grade to grade. But you can improve the outcomes by looking for things PPs have suggested, like involved parents (which generally means kids who are ready and motivated for school), and a strong principal (who will deal with weaker teachers if you get one).

The school facilities is near the bottom of my list, as long as they have some sort of playground I don't care if it's brand new or designed by one of the fancy playground design companies. Bad bathrooms are depressing, but your ES kid may not notice so much.