TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Not if they aren't prepared for it. You can't ignore kids for their entire life and then just plop them in the most competitive academic environment in Virginia and think you've done them some sort of favor.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

Wait, do you think Asians were getting in because they were lucky? You think the kids were getting their test scores because they were lucky?

Not the PP but kids born into a family that can dump thousands of $$$$ into expensive prep were lucky.

$1600 isn't nothing but it is not prohibitive. If you qualify for fee assistance that price can go down to $640.
And once again, there is very little that Kaplan knows that Khan academy does not.
It requires more motivation to do khan academy.

I haven't heard one person who can explain to me why it should be necessary for kids to do additional purely academic prep work (not activities, literally just more homework) than is offered at their school in order to gain admission to TJ.

I feel awful for the tens of thousands of families over the past decade or so who have spent tons of money and torn their kids away from activities they're passionate about in an effort to keep up with that arms race. Never mind the thousands of families who did that just to have their kid be rejected by the old process. Ask the kids when they're 30 if it was worth it - I'll bet you they'll say it was to your face but privately they will raise their kids very differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Not if they aren't prepared for it. You can't ignore kids for their entire life and then just plop them in the most competitive academic environment in Virginia and think you've done them some sort of favor.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

Wait, do you think Asians were getting in because they were lucky? You think the kids were getting their test scores because they were lucky?

Not the PP but kids born into a family that can dump thousands of $$$$ into expensive prep were lucky.

$1600 isn't nothing but it is not prohibitive. If you qualify for fee assistance that price can go down to $640.
And once again, there is very little that Kaplan knows that Khan academy does not.
It requires more motivation to do khan academy.

I haven't heard one person who can explain to me why it should be necessary for kids to do additional purely academic prep work (not activities, literally just more homework) than is offered at their school in order to gain admission to TJ.

I feel awful for the tens of thousands of families over the past decade or so who have spent tons of money and torn their kids away from activities they're passionate about in an effort to keep up with that arms race. Never mind the thousands of families who did that just to have their kid be rejected by the old process. Ask the kids when they're 30 if it was worth it - I'll bet you they'll say it was to your face but privately they will raise their kids very differently.

[Anonymous]

Hey mods - while you're deleting stuff feel free to delete one of my double posts and this one!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

But it was just easier when you could just buy the test and guarantee your kid would get a top notch education.

In case you're wondering, this guy is taking about Indian kids. He is implying that there are a lot of Indian kids at TJ because Indians cheat. That's who is carrying the flag for your side of the argument most of the time.

DP. I don't think that the insinuation is that "Indians cheat"... it's that a greater percentage of Indian parents are motivated enough to take any path that is necessary to attain educational prestige. For me, the problematic part of that with respect to TJ is that oftentimes that happens at the expense of opportunities for other important activities like sports, the arts, and unstructured play that are important for developing children in their most formative years.

It's too often presented as a false choice by these families and those who apologize for them that in order to get into TJ, you as a family have to make sacrifices and choose not to do some of those other things. A TJ admissions process that is set up to make that statement true would do (and did for many years) significant harm to children whose parents felt that they needed to streamline their kids' childhoods to optimize their chances for admission. And thousands of them failed to be admitted anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

But it was just easier when you could just buy the test and guarantee your kid would get a top notch education.

In case you're wondering, this guy is taking about Indian kids. He is implying that there are a lot of Indian kids at TJ because Indians cheat. That's who is carrying the flag for your side of the argument most of the time.

DP. I don't think that the insinuation is that "Indians cheat"... it's that a greater percentage of Indian parents are motivated enough to take any path that is necessary to attain educational prestige.

And how is that not an accusation of cheating?

For me, the problematic part of that with respect to TJ is that oftentimes that happens at the expense of opportunities for other important activities like sports, the arts, and unstructured play that are important for developing children in their most formative years.

That's your opinion and you can raise your children that what you think is in the best intersts of your children.
And you should let them raise their children the way they think is in the best interests of their children
By all appearances, their kids are succeeding at much higher rates than other kids, even if their soccer skills are poor.
Immigrants focus on academic achievement.
This dynamic has been true for immigrant populations my entire life.
First it was the jews from eastern europe, then the east asians, and now the indians.

It's too often presented as a false choice by these families and those who apologize for them that in order to get into TJ, you as a family have to make sacrifices and choose not to do some of those other things. A TJ admissions process that is set up to make that statement true would do (and did for many years) significant harm to children whose parents felt that they needed to streamline their kids' childhoods to optimize their chances for admission. And thousands of them failed to be admitted anyway.

You misunderstand the entire point behind places like curie. They aren't enrolling 5-year-olds in curie because they want to prep for the TJ test for the next 8 years. They are in curie because even a C- student will have a vastly better life if they can be turned into a B+ student. Sure, curie offers TJ prep but that is such a small part of their curriculum. By the time the prep comes around, they have thousands of hours of extra enrichment that they can benefit from regardless of whether or not they go to TJ.

They know full well that not every indian kid is going to get into mit and work at jane street, but they still believe their kid's life will be better off with 200 hours of math a year instead of 200 hours of sports. Who are you to say they are wrong?
They can see how america treats poor minorities, they've seen that movie.
This is not the country you come to if you want to be poor and brown.

As for TJ, it's not meant for everyone.
Compromising its mission to train the best and brightest in order to delude ourselves into thinking that the best and brightest are evenly distributed across all groups is stupid.
Until you have equivalent effort across the board, you will not have equivalent results across the board; and judging from sentiments like yours that these parents are ruining their kids' childhoods by with too much study, there will never be equivalent effort... and you will never get equivalent results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Not if they aren't prepared for it. You can't ignore kids for their entire life and then just plop them in the most competitive academic environment in Virginia and think you've done them some sort of favor.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

Wait, do you think Asians were getting in because they were lucky? You think the kids were getting their test scores because they were lucky?

Not the PP but kids born into a family that can dump thousands of $$$$ into expensive prep were lucky.

$1600 isn't nothing but it is not prohibitive. If you qualify for fee assistance that price can go down to $640.
And once again, there is very little that Kaplan knows that Khan academy does not.
It requires more motivation to do khan academy.

I haven't heard one person who can explain to me why it should be necessary for kids to do additional purely academic prep work (not activities, literally just more homework) than is offered at their school in order to gain admission to TJ.

Because our schools are woefully inadequate to challenge the brightest students and barely adequate to address the needs of mediocre students.

I feel awful for the tens of thousands of families over the past decade or so who have spent tons of money and torn their kids away from activities they're passionate about in an effort to keep up with that arms race. Never mind the thousands of families who did that just to have their kid be rejected by the old process. Ask the kids when they're 30 if it was worth it - I'll bet you they'll say it was to your face but privately they will raise their kids very differently.

Excellence isn't easy. Many try, few succeed.
But the notion that those years of extra study and academic effort is wasted time and money unless they get into TJ is nucking futz.
These families believe their kids will still have a better life by studying than by playing travel lacrosse... even if they don't go to TJ

I am one of those kids and at 30 I was making more than the president of the united states.
That gave me a lot of options in life. I think it was worth it.
I think I have a better perspective than recent immigrants so I think I can help my kids into achieving the same or better results with a more well-rounded childhood but frankly their schedules are much busier than mine when I was their age. I had a lot more time to stare at clouds as a kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hey mods - while you're deleting stuff feel free to delete one of my double posts and this one!

Hunh. What's up with the deleted posts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

But it was just easier when you could just buy the test and guarantee your kid would get a top notch education.

In case you're wondering, this guy is taking about Indian kids. He is implying that there are a lot of Indian kids at TJ because Indians cheat. That's who is carrying the flag for your side of the argument most of the time.

DP. I don't think that the insinuation is that "Indians cheat"... it's that a greater percentage of Indian parents are motivated enough to take any path that is necessary to attain educational prestige.

And how is that not an accusation of cheating?

For me, the problematic part of that with respect to TJ is that oftentimes that happens at the expense of opportunities for other important activities like sports, the arts, and unstructured play that are important for developing children in their most formative years.

That's your opinion and you can raise your children that what you think is in the best intersts of your children.
And you should let them raise their children the way they think is in the best interests of their children
By all appearances, their kids are succeeding at much higher rates than other kids, even if their soccer skills are poor.
Immigrants focus on academic achievement.
This dynamic has been true for immigrant populations my entire life.
First it was the jews from eastern europe, then the east asians, and now the indians.

It's too often presented as a false choice by these families and those who apologize for them that in order to get into TJ, you as a family have to make sacrifices and choose not to do some of those other things. A TJ admissions process that is set up to make that statement true would do (and did for many years) significant harm to children whose parents felt that they needed to streamline their kids' childhoods to optimize their chances for admission. And thousands of them failed to be admitted anyway.

You misunderstand the entire point behind places like curie. They aren't enrolling 5-year-olds in curie because they want to prep for the TJ test for the next 8 years. They are in curie because even a C- student will have a vastly better life if they can be turned into a B+ student. Sure, curie offers TJ prep but that is such a small part of their curriculum. By the time the prep comes around, they have thousands of hours of extra enrichment that they can benefit from regardless of whether or not they go to TJ.

They know full well that not every indian kid is going to get into mit and work at jane street, but they still believe their kid's life will be better off with 200 hours of math a year instead of 200 hours of sports. Who are you to say they are wrong?
They can see how america treats poor minorities, they've seen that movie.
This is not the country you come to if you want to be poor and brown.

As for TJ, it's not meant for everyone.
Compromising its mission to train the best and brightest in order to delude ourselves into thinking that the best and brightest are evenly distributed across all groups is stupid.
Until you have equivalent effort across the board, you will not have equivalent results across the board; and judging from sentiments like yours that these parents are ruining their kids' childhoods by with too much study, there will never be equivalent effort... and you will never get equivalent results.

1) It's not an accusation of cheating because going to Curie isn't cheating. What Curie did themselves, while not technically being illegal, isn't great, but I don't consider the parents to have cheated because they signed their kids up to take advantage of the information that Curie shouldn't have had.

2) I reject the notion that overextending your child's time spent on academic activities amounts to a focus on "academic achievement". That's fine if you want to define it that way, but what I've seen altogether too often at TJ is students arriving prepared for the course material, but unprepared to handle the intellectual rigor without investing all of their free time on keeping up. This has led to inordinate stress levels and less competitive college outcomes because of an inability to invest in activities that show colleges that a student is a worthwhile investment for them.

3) I have no problem with people raising their children (and subsequently damaging them) however they want, but I will fight tooth and nail against any admissions process that incentivizes the damaging practices that I've witnessed for so long. Put differently, parents should not have to feel as though they have to subscribe to your child-rearing theory in order to have access to elite academic opportunities.

4) It's amusing that you mention that you've "seen how America treats poor minorities" while railing against a program whose most notable achievement is raising the TJ FARMS population from near zero to about 20% and the TJ Asian FARMS population from 1 to 51. It sounds like you're just fine with how America treats poor minorities as long as you get yours. Very illuminating with regard to your morals and ethics in the context of an America where most of the "poor and brown" people had their ancestors forcibly brought here.

5) Pretty much any peer-reviewed academic study (feel free to Google yourself) will tell you that the kid with 100 hours of math and 100 hours of sports is going to do better than the kid with 200 hours of math or 200 hours of sports unless they are categorically elite in either area. You can posit another opinion, but the scientific community writ large will disagree with you on balance.

6) I'd love for you to cite where TJ's mission is to "train the best and brightest". Feel free to peruse any of TJ's founding documents or anything that FCPS has ever put out.

7) As far as study goes, there is no question that it is critical to academic achievement. But I'm guided by the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility when it comes to that area. And having seen the college outcomes of TJ kids for a long time - and hearing from parents at other relatively high-achieving schools in the area - I have a pretty large body of anecdotal evidence that supports my preferred priorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

But it was just easier when you could just buy the test and guarantee your kid would get a top notch education.

In case you're wondering, this guy is taking about Indian kids. He is implying that there are a lot of Indian kids at TJ because Indians cheat. That's who is carrying the flag for your side of the argument most of the time.

DP. I don't think that the insinuation is that "Indians cheat"... it's that a greater percentage of Indian parents are motivated enough to take any path that is necessary to attain educational prestige.

And how is that not an accusation of cheating?

For me, the problematic part of that with respect to TJ is that oftentimes that happens at the expense of opportunities for other important activities like sports, the arts, and unstructured play that are important for developing children in their most formative years.

That's your opinion and you can raise your children that what you think is in the best intersts of your children.
And you should let them raise their children the way they think is in the best interests of their children
By all appearances, their kids are succeeding at much higher rates than other kids, even if their soccer skills are poor.
Immigrants focus on academic achievement.
This dynamic has been true for immigrant populations my entire life.
First it was the jews from eastern europe, then the east asians, and now the indians.

It's too often presented as a false choice by these families and those who apologize for them that in order to get into TJ, you as a family have to make sacrifices and choose not to do some of those other things. A TJ admissions process that is set up to make that statement true would do (and did for many years) significant harm to children whose parents felt that they needed to streamline their kids' childhoods to optimize their chances for admission. And thousands of them failed to be admitted anyway.

You misunderstand the entire point behind places like curie. They aren't enrolling 5-year-olds in curie because they want to prep for the TJ test for the next 8 years. They are in curie because even a C- student will have a vastly better life if they can be turned into a B+ student. Sure, curie offers TJ prep but that is such a small part of their curriculum. By the time the prep comes around, they have thousands of hours of extra enrichment that they can benefit from regardless of whether or not they go to TJ.

They know full well that not every indian kid is going to get into mit and work at jane street, but they still believe their kid's life will be better off with 200 hours of math a year instead of 200 hours of sports. Who are you to say they are wrong?
They can see how america treats poor minorities, they've seen that movie.
This is not the country you come to if you want to be poor and brown.

As for TJ, it's not meant for everyone.
Compromising its mission to train the best and brightest in order to delude ourselves into thinking that the best and brightest are evenly distributed across all groups is stupid.
Until you have equivalent effort across the board, you will not have equivalent results across the board; and judging from sentiments like yours that these parents are ruining their kids' childhoods by with too much study, there will never be equivalent effort... and you will never get equivalent results.

1) It's not an accusation of cheating because going to Curie isn't cheating. What Curie did themselves, while not technically being illegal, isn't great, but I don't consider the parents to have cheated because they signed their kids up to take advantage of the information that Curie shouldn't have had.

2) I reject the notion that overextending your child's time spent on academic activities amounts to a focus on "academic achievement". That's fine if you want to define it that way, but what I've seen altogether too often at TJ is students arriving prepared for the course material, but unprepared to handle the intellectual rigor without investing all of their free time on keeping up. This has led to inordinate stress levels and less competitive college outcomes because of an inability to invest in activities that show colleges that a student is a worthwhile investment for them.

3) I have no problem with people raising their children (and subsequently damaging them) however they want, but I will fight tooth and nail against any admissions process that incentivizes the damaging practices that I've witnessed for so long. Put differently, parents should not have to feel as though they have to subscribe to your child-rearing theory in order to have access to elite academic opportunities.

4) It's amusing that you mention that you've "seen how America treats poor minorities" while railing against a program whose most notable achievement is raising the TJ FARMS population from near zero to about 20% and the TJ Asian FARMS population from 1 to 51. It sounds like you're just fine with how America treats poor minorities as long as you get yours. Very illuminating with regard to your morals and ethics in the context of an America where most of the "poor and brown" people had their ancestors forcibly brought here.

5) Pretty much any peer-reviewed academic study (feel free to Google yourself) will tell you that the kid with 100 hours of math and 100 hours of sports is going to do better than the kid with 200 hours of math or 200 hours of sports unless they are categorically elite in either area. You can posit another opinion, but the scientific community writ large will disagree with you on balance.

6) I'd love for you to cite where TJ's mission is to "train the best and brightest". Feel free to peruse any of TJ's founding documents or anything that FCPS has ever put out.

7) As far as study goes, there is no question that it is critical to academic achievement. But I'm guided by the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility when it comes to that area. And having seen the college outcomes of TJ kids for a long time - and hearing from parents at other relatively high-achieving schools in the area - I have a pretty large body of anecdotal evidence that supports my preferred priorities.

You make many excellent points. Couldn't agree more. The previous poster is an awful person.

[Anonymous]

...the PP as in the person you were responding to who is insisting on the crazy elitist narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

But it was just easier when you could just buy the test and guarantee your kid would get a top notch education.

In case you're wondering, this guy is taking about Indian kids. He is implying that there are a lot of Indian kids at TJ because Indians cheat. That's who is carrying the flag for your side of the argument most of the time.

DP. I don't think that the insinuation is that "Indians cheat"... it's that a greater percentage of Indian parents are motivated enough to take any path that is necessary to attain educational prestige.

And how is that not an accusation of cheating?

For me, the problematic part of that with respect to TJ is that oftentimes that happens at the expense of opportunities for other important activities like sports, the arts, and unstructured play that are important for developing children in their most formative years.

That's your opinion and you can raise your children that what you think is in the best intersts of your children.
And you should let them raise their children the way they think is in the best interests of their children
By all appearances, their kids are succeeding at much higher rates than other kids, even if their soccer skills are poor.
Immigrants focus on academic achievement.
This dynamic has been true for immigrant populations my entire life.
First it was the jews from eastern europe, then the east asians, and now the indians.

It's too often presented as a false choice by these families and those who apologize for them that in order to get into TJ, you as a family have to make sacrifices and choose not to do some of those other things. A TJ admissions process that is set up to make that statement true would do (and did for many years) significant harm to children whose parents felt that they needed to streamline their kids' childhoods to optimize their chances for admission. And thousands of them failed to be admitted anyway.

You misunderstand the entire point behind places like curie. They aren't enrolling 5-year-olds in curie because they want to prep for the TJ test for the next 8 years. They are in curie because even a C- student will have a vastly better life if they can be turned into a B+ student. Sure, curie offers TJ prep but that is such a small part of their curriculum. By the time the prep comes around, they have thousands of hours of extra enrichment that they can benefit from regardless of whether or not they go to TJ.

They know full well that not every indian kid is going to get into mit and work at jane street, but they still believe their kid's life will be better off with 200 hours of math a year instead of 200 hours of sports. Who are you to say they are wrong?
They can see how america treats poor minorities, they've seen that movie.
This is not the country you come to if you want to be poor and brown.

As for TJ, it's not meant for everyone.
Compromising its mission to train the best and brightest in order to delude ourselves into thinking that the best and brightest are evenly distributed across all groups is stupid.
Until you have equivalent effort across the board, you will not have equivalent results across the board; and judging from sentiments like yours that these parents are ruining their kids' childhoods by with too much study, there will never be equivalent effort... and you will never get equivalent results.

1) It's not an accusation of cheating because going to Curie isn't cheating. What Curie did themselves, while not technically being illegal, isn't great, but I don't consider the parents to have cheated because they signed their kids up to take advantage of the information that Curie shouldn't have had.

So saying that these families buy test answers before the test is not an accusation of cheating?

This information that curie shouldn't have had is available on amazon.com
https://www.amazon.com/Quant-Test-Prep-Book-Practice/dp/109286427X

You must have noticed how some people conflate studying with cheating. We cannot criticize effort and deny people the fruits of their effort, that changes incentives in all the wrong ways.

2) I reject the notion that overextending your child's time spent on academic activities amounts to a focus on "academic achievement". That's fine if you want to define it that way, but what I've seen altogether too often at TJ is students arriving prepared for the course material, but unprepared to handle the intellectual rigor without investing all of their free time on keeping up. This has led to inordinate stress levels and less competitive college outcomes because of an inability to invest in activities that show colleges that a student is a worthwhile investment for them.

You reject the notion that studying amounts to focusing on academic achievement? Are you serious?
You think the old way was imperfect, I can't defend anything as being perfect but:
Do you think the kids picked under the new method are better able to handle the academic rigor? Test scores say otherwise.
Do you think the kids picked under the new method have less stress? The rate of returning to base schools says otherwise.
Do you think the kids picked under the new method will have more competitive college outcomes? We don't know yet but all data indicates otherwise.

3) I have no problem with people raising their children (and subsequently damaging them) however they want, but I will fight tooth and nail against any admissions process that incentivizes the damaging practices that I've witnessed for so long.

And yet those "damaged" children (whether they make it into TJ or not) go on to have more successful careers, more stable marriages, better health and lower suicide rates as teens AND adults than other kids who may have been shielded from the inhumane practice of studying hard. You sure studying is such a bad thing?

Put differently, parents should not have to feel as though they have to subscribe to your child-rearing theory in order to have access to elite academic opportunities.

Elite athletic opportunities require sacrifice, far greater sacrifice than elite academic opportunities.
But it's not just about elite academic opportunities.
Time spent studying is not wasted if you don't get into some selective academic program.
An otherwise C- student improves their life considerably by becoming a B+ student even if they had to study very hard to achieve that B+, actually ESPECIALLY if they had to study very hard to achieve that B+.
Over the long run, being an honors student in high school has a better lifetime outcome than being a varsity athlete in high school. Studying has benefits far beyond getting better grades just like youth athletics has benefits far beyond the trophy they strive to get at the end of the season.

4) It's amusing that you mention that you've "seen how America treats poor minorities" while railing against a program whose most notable achievement is raising the TJ FARMS population from near zero to about 20% and the TJ Asian FARMS population from 1 to 51. It sounds like you're just fine with how America treats poor minorities as long as you get yours. Very illuminating with regard to your morals and ethics in the context of an America where most of the "poor and brown" people had their ancestors forcibly brought here.

I am fine with the FARM preference, I don't think it's doing anyone any favors to put kids in over their heads just because they are poor but I can see a good argument for a mild FARM preference. We can even have a FARM quota. There is no constitutional prohibition against quotas for poor kids.

But if you want more poor kids, the way to do it is to focus MORE on testing, not less.
Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech in NYC are majority FARM students and there is only one way to get in. Score well on a single test given in 8th grade.
Holistic measures and subjective criteria tend to favor kids with resources.

BTW, asians didn't own a lot of slaves. They just bear the burden of assuaging today's white guilt.

5) Pretty much any peer-reviewed academic study (feel free to Google yourself) will tell you that the kid with 100 hours of math and 100 hours of sports is going to do better than the kid with 200 hours of math or 200 hours of sports unless they are categorically elite in either area. You can posit another opinion, but the scientific community writ large will disagree with you on balance.

Can you link this study because I'm pretty sure that almost no other country in the world focuses on youth sports nearly as much as we do. They certainly don't put sports on par with academics.
There are literally entire continents where the most popular kid in the school is likely to have one of the highest GPAs and test scores.
Also, if we are talking about getting into TJ under the old method, you are likely talking about elite students even if they had to study hard to get in, you're not even in the ballpark if you weren't an elite student.

6) I'd love for you to cite where TJ's mission is to "train the best and brightest". Feel free to peruse any of TJ's founding documents or anything that FCPS has ever put out.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learning-assessment/specialized-instruction/governor-s-schools

7) As far as study goes, there is no question that it is critical to academic achievement. But I'm guided by the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility when it comes to that area. And having seen the college outcomes of TJ kids for a long time - and hearing from parents at other relatively high-achieving schools in the area - I have a pretty large body of anecdotal evidence that supports my preferred priorities.

Having gone to a school like TJ and seen the lifetime outcomes of people that went to schools like TJ my entire life, I think you might be seeing what you want to see and hearing what you want to hear.
Where you go to college is not as important for a gifted student than being academically challenged earlier in life, their terminal degree is far more important than their undergrad degree. Facerolling your way through high school can lead to disastrous results in college when you finally hit that wall.

Everything is subject to the law of diminishing returns but you still strive for excellence even if each unit of progress is more and more difficult to achieve, there is no upper limit to how much we need to develop the top end of potential.
We have serious problems that will only be solved by bleeding edge technology.
We are not going to protest our way out of global warming, we are going to science our way out of it.
In fact much of the social progress of the last 100 years have been made possible by science not protests.
Same with economic progress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:...the PP as in the person you were responding to who is insisting on the crazy elitist narrative.

TJ is an elite school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

First of all test scores do not seem to be artificially inflated for wealthier kids.
See Opportunity Insights research on sat scores and income.

I used to work for princeton review and kaplan as an instructor then a tutor and I promise you, there is little that princeton review and kaplan knows that khan academy does not know.
This was decades ago but I think kaplan asked me for my tests scores and had some cutoffs and I think I took a test. They had me explain something in front of other kids but they seemed much more focused on my past test scores. I think they look for instructors that are smarter than the students.
I think Princeton review kind of just asked me to talk in front of a classroom full of other kids trying out for a job. I think they just picked the most attractive kids that could speak well in front of an audience. It was more like an audition than an interview. I think they look for instructors that will engage and keep the attention of high school, juniors.

As for their guarantees, the Princeton review's 150 point guarantee (and kaplan's guarantee and pretty much everyone's guarantee) is based off of either an official test that you have already taken or their diagnostic test and the higher your diagnostic test score, the smaller the guaranteed improvement.
Their diagnostic test is harder than the actual test so if you haven't taken the SAT yet, it is going to based off this diagnostic which yields a test score that is artificially deflated.
Also they don't refund the value of the books and material and guess how much of your fee is books and materials?

If your kids is not very motivated, then these places will help with that (the guarantees are only good if your student does all the work).
But I promise you, there is little that these places know that khan academy does not.

All I know is my kid only scored 1320 but after the Kaplan course went up to 1540. It was worth every penny.

Yep, you get what you pay for. The PP is just trying to diminish the impact of SES on academic performance, but it's well documented in peer reviewed studies. There is no disputing that wealth and privilege confer a massive advantage.

Sure, wealth and privilege provides more ability to develop your potential but it is not the only factor.
If it were then we wouldn't see 25% of asians getting a 1400 or higher on their SAt while 6% of whites get 1400 or higher.

And in the end, the test score reflects ability and not wealth.
That is also based on peer reviewed studies.

It will always be harder for poorer kids to develop their academic potential but their SAT score differential is not based on access to princeton review.
The differential is due to a lifetime of less development and enrichment compared to their wealthier peers.

Development and enrichment - such as TJ.

TJ applicants are all just kids. They all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

Not if they aren't prepared for it. You can't ignore kids for their entire life and then just plop them in the most competitive academic environment in Virginia and think you've done them some sort of favor.

TJ exists for development and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

Wait, do you think Asians were getting in because they were lucky? You think the kids were getting their test scores because they were lucky?

Not the PP but kids born into a family that can dump thousands of $$$$ into expensive prep were lucky.

$1600 isn't nothing but it is not prohibitive. If you qualify for fee assistance that price can go down to $640.
And once again, there is very little that Kaplan knows that Khan academy does not.
It requires more motivation to do khan academy.

I haven't heard one person who can explain to me why it should be necessary for kids to do additional purely academic prep work (not activities, literally just more homework) than is offered at their school in order to gain admission to TJ.

I feel awful for the tens of thousands of families over the past decade or so who have spent tons of money and torn their kids away from activities they're passionate about in an effort to keep up with that arms race. Never mind the thousands of families who did that just to have their kid be rejected by the old process. Ask the kids when they're 30 if it was worth it - I'll bet you they'll say it was to your face but privately they will raise their kids very differently.

I agree with you on the first point. It shouldn't be necessary for kids to do academic prep work to be admitted to TJ. Unfortunately, many kids need to do outside enrichment to be adequately prepared for a school like TJ. This is largely because the Honors classes in middle school have been watered down to the point that any above average kid can get As without doing much work or learning much of anything. The most ideal solution would be for FCPS to lean hard on the middle schools to make honors and AAP classes rigorous and with non-inflated grades. Kids who struggle in a real honors class can choose to either drop down to regular or use a program like AVID to get extra support.

Also, current TJ admissions policies don't even require kids to maximize what is offered at their schools. Every child in FCPS has the opportunity to qualify for Algebra in 7th grade. But, this is not required by TJ. Every child has the opportunity to take (watered down, not-really) honors in all subject areas. TJ allows kids to take gen ed (remedial) in one subject. With grade inflation, every kid who is above average should be able to get at least a 3.8. TJ allows kids to apply with 3.5s. Every single FCPS middle school has some STEM electives and STEM clubs. TJ does not require or even care about participation in these. Kids should not need to go beyond what is offered at their school to gain TJ admissions, but they should at least fully use what is offered at their school.

[Anonymous]

TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.