TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Tests are just affirmative action for smart kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In regards to the struggling students mentioned above, TJ used to counsel out struggling students, one reason they were able to keep their stats high. Is TJ still counseling out students?

The fact that the cohort that failed the SOL in 10th grade is similarly sized to the cohort that failed it the next year in 11th grade suggests otherwise. That makes sense as counseling out might undermine the demographic shift that the admissions changes were designed to achieve. In the period you reference where counseling out occurred, Asian students made up roughly 70-75% of the incoming freshman class but accounted for roughly 85% of the class by senior year following the net outflow/inflow of students during high school. That may explain why FCPS/TJ changed both 9th and 10th grade admissions policies simultaneously, to minimize the chance of demographic drift occurring during high school.

There demographic shift in admissions seems pretty negligible. Sure, instead of 3% of a URM group there's now 4% which is a big improvement I guess.

The first class of the new admissions was 25% FARMs. That’s not negligible.

Yes, I had read low-income Asians were the largest beneficiary of the changes.

Correct. Given bonus points, Asians will over perform compared to their peer groups. Just like medium and high income Asians. Doesn’t mean they were the most deserving students, just means, as expected poor Asians perform better than other poor demographics just like rich Asians and middle income asians. It’s not about the money. Honestly TJ should have more Asians if it were merit based.

It is merit based. You just want them to use a metric that can be easily gamed.

DP If it were merit-based, they wouldn't make the sophomore admissions process test optional. Doing so could lead to the admission of students without requisite foundational skills, to the detriment of the students.

But they "highly recommend" taking the PSAT. I mean, how many kids get in without the PSAT?

That would be a question for TJ. Their requirements have evolved. For 2020-21, PSAT/SAT was required for sophomore applications. For 2021-22 and 2022-23, PSAT/SAT was optional and SOL reading failures emerged. For 2023-24 and 2024-25, TJ shifted to saying PSAT/SAT was optional but recommended. (I don't see "highly recommend". Where do you see that?)

So it appears that TJ began to partially rethink its PSAT/SAT optional policy around the time that SOL reading failures emerged, as they shifted from optional to optional but recommended. However, if PSAT/SAT is recommended, why not just require PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications as they did previously and as they currently do for junior applications?

Sophomore Application
2020-21 PSAT/SAT required https://web.archive.org/web/20200501070914/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2021-22 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20210429231119/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2022-23 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20220512103310/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2023-24 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20230530140324/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2024-25 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20240306125734/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In regards to the struggling students mentioned above, TJ used to counsel out struggling students, one reason they were able to keep their stats high. Is TJ still counseling out students?

The fact that the cohort that failed the SOL in 10th grade is similarly sized to the cohort that failed it the next year in 11th grade suggests otherwise. That makes sense as counseling out might undermine the demographic shift that the admissions changes were designed to achieve. In the period you reference where counseling out occurred, Asian students made up roughly 70-75% of the incoming freshman class but accounted for roughly 85% of the class by senior year following the net outflow/inflow of students during high school. That may explain why FCPS/TJ changed both 9th and 10th grade admissions policies simultaneously, to minimize the chance of demographic drift occurring during high school.

There demographic shift in admissions seems pretty negligible. Sure, instead of 3% of a URM group there's now 4% which is a big improvement I guess.

The first class of the new admissions was 25% FARMs. That’s not negligible.

Yes, I had read low-income Asians were the largest beneficiary of the changes.

Correct. Given bonus points, Asians will over perform compared to their peer groups. Just like medium and high income Asians. Doesn’t mean they were the most deserving students, just means, as expected poor Asians perform better than other poor demographics just like rich Asians and middle income asians. It’s not about the money. Honestly TJ should have more Asians if it were merit based.

It is merit based. You just want them to use a metric that can be easily gamed.

DP If it were merit-based, they wouldn't make the sophomore admissions process test optional. Doing so could lead to the admission of students without requisite foundational skills, to the detriment of the students.

But they "highly recommend" taking the PSAT. I mean, how many kids get in without the PSAT?

That would be a question for TJ. Their requirements have evolved. For 2020-21, PSAT/SAT was required for sophomore applications. For 2021-22 and 2022-23, PSAT/SAT was optional and SOL reading failures emerged. For 2023-24 and 2024-25, TJ shifted to saying PSAT/SAT was optional but recommended. (I don't see "highly recommend". Where do you see that?)

So it appears that TJ began to partially rethink its PSAT/SAT optional policy around the time that SOL reading failures emerged, as they shifted from optional to optional but recommended. However, if PSAT/SAT is recommended, why not just require PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications as they did previously and as they currently do for junior applications?

Sophomore Application
2020-21 PSAT/SAT required https://web.archive.org/web/20200501070914/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2021-22 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20210429231119/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2022-23 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20220512103310/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2023-24 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20230530140324/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2024-25 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20240306125734/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process

The pandemic had a big impact on many schools including TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In regards to the struggling students mentioned above, TJ used to counsel out struggling students, one reason they were able to keep their stats high. Is TJ still counseling out students?

The fact that the cohort that failed the SOL in 10th grade is similarly sized to the cohort that failed it the next year in 11th grade suggests otherwise. That makes sense as counseling out might undermine the demographic shift that the admissions changes were designed to achieve. In the period you reference where counseling out occurred, Asian students made up roughly 70-75% of the incoming freshman class but accounted for roughly 85% of the class by senior year following the net outflow/inflow of students during high school. That may explain why FCPS/TJ changed both 9th and 10th grade admissions policies simultaneously, to minimize the chance of demographic drift occurring during high school.

There demographic shift in admissions seems pretty negligible. Sure, instead of 3% of a URM group there's now 4% which is a big improvement I guess.

The first class of the new admissions was 25% FARMs. That’s not negligible.

Yes, I had read low-income Asians were the largest beneficiary of the changes.

Correct. Given bonus points, Asians will over perform compared to their peer groups. Just like medium and high income Asians. Doesn’t mean they were the most deserving students, just means, as expected poor Asians perform better than other poor demographics just like rich Asians and middle income asians. It’s not about the money. Honestly TJ should have more Asians if it were merit based.

It is merit based. You just want them to use a metric that can be easily gamed.

DP If it were merit-based, they wouldn't make the sophomore admissions process test optional. Doing so could lead to the admission of students without requisite foundational skills, to the detriment of the students.

But they "highly recommend" taking the PSAT. I mean, how many kids get in without the PSAT?

That would be a question for TJ. Their requirements have evolved. For 2020-21, PSAT/SAT was required for sophomore applications. For 2021-22 and 2022-23, PSAT/SAT was optional and SOL reading failures emerged. For 2023-24 and 2024-25, TJ shifted to saying PSAT/SAT was optional but recommended. (I don't see "highly recommend". Where do you see that?)

So it appears that TJ began to partially rethink its PSAT/SAT optional policy around the time that SOL reading failures emerged, as they shifted from optional to optional but recommended. However, if PSAT/SAT is recommended, why not just require PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications as they did previously and as they currently do for junior applications?

Sophomore Application
2020-21 PSAT/SAT required https://web.archive.org/web/20200501070914/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2021-22 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20210429231119/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2022-23 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20220512103310/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2023-24 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20230530140324/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2024-25 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20240306125734/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process

The pandemic had a big impact on many schools including TJ.

There were no SOL failures at TJ in 2020-21, which was the worst of the pandemic years. It was only after test optional was introduced that SOL failures occurred across subjects. There is no pandemic now; there is nothing to stop them from requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications presently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In regards to the struggling students mentioned above, TJ used to counsel out struggling students, one reason they were able to keep their stats high. Is TJ still counseling out students?

The fact that the cohort that failed the SOL in 10th grade is similarly sized to the cohort that failed it the next year in 11th grade suggests otherwise. That makes sense as counseling out might undermine the demographic shift that the admissions changes were designed to achieve. In the period you reference where counseling out occurred, Asian students made up roughly 70-75% of the incoming freshman class but accounted for roughly 85% of the class by senior year following the net outflow/inflow of students during high school. That may explain why FCPS/TJ changed both 9th and 10th grade admissions policies simultaneously, to minimize the chance of demographic drift occurring during high school.

There demographic shift in admissions seems pretty negligible. Sure, instead of 3% of a URM group there's now 4% which is a big improvement I guess.

The first class of the new admissions was 25% FARMs. That’s not negligible.

Yes, I had read low-income Asians were the largest beneficiary of the changes.

Correct. Given bonus points, Asians will over perform compared to their peer groups. Just like medium and high income Asians. Doesn’t mean they were the most deserving students, just means, as expected poor Asians perform better than other poor demographics just like rich Asians and middle income asians. It’s not about the money. Honestly TJ should have more Asians if it were merit based.

It is merit based. You just want them to use a metric that can be easily gamed.

DP If it were merit-based, they wouldn't make the sophomore admissions process test optional. Doing so could lead to the admission of students without requisite foundational skills, to the detriment of the students.

But they "highly recommend" taking the PSAT. I mean, how many kids get in without the PSAT?

That would be a question for TJ. Their requirements have evolved. For 2020-21, PSAT/SAT was required for sophomore applications. For 2021-22 and 2022-23, PSAT/SAT was optional and SOL reading failures emerged. For 2023-24 and 2024-25, TJ shifted to saying PSAT/SAT was optional but recommended. (I don't see "highly recommend". Where do you see that?)

So it appears that TJ began to partially rethink its PSAT/SAT optional policy around the time that SOL reading failures emerged, as they shifted from optional to optional but recommended. However, if PSAT/SAT is recommended, why not just require PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications as they did previously and as they currently do for junior applications?

Sophomore Application
2020-21 PSAT/SAT required https://web.archive.org/web/20200501070914/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2021-22 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20210429231119/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2022-23 PSAT/SAT optional https://web.archive.org/web/20220512103310/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2023-24 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20230530140324/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process
2024-25 PSAT/SAT optional but recommended https://web.archive.org/web/20240306125734/https://www.fcps.edu/registration/thomas-jefferson-admissions/sophomore-application-process

I think you're trying to see something that just isn't there. Students across the globe were impacted by the pandemic. Many still haven't recovered from this. Even TJ students were affected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

[Anonymous]

The new system is underselecting for test scores and content knowledge. In a competitive magnet, students should not be failing SOLs that are set at minimum grade level content. There had never been a reading, science or math SOL failure prior to the new admissions changes. Now there are multiple, which is a disservice to those students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The new system is underselecting for test scores and content knowledge. In a competitive magnet, students should not be failing SOLs that are set at minimum grade level content. There had never been a reading, science or math SOL failure prior to the new admissions changes. Now there are multiple, which is a disservice to those students.

This. It’s testing grade level content people which is the floor. It’s not hard. These students do not belong at TJ, and I agree that it’s a disservice to them.

Things have gone downhill fast from the caliber and academic profile of previous to now with failing SOL, remedial math classes at the school, and a significant percentage of current kids not even on grade level in math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sophomore admissions used to require PSAT or SAT. There are free, widely available prep materials for these tests at Khan Academy which any student can access. PSAT/SAT are the way that talented, economically disadvantaged students can distinguish themselves, which is why colleges are going back to requiring them. TJ should also go back to requiring PSAT/SAT for sophomore applications, just as they currently do for junior applications.

Sadly the free stuff just doesn't compare to the more expensive classes offered by many places like Princeton Review.

Many students have good results from just using Khan and review books from Amazon.

It helped mine too but later when they went to Princeton review their score went up over 200 points. My conclusion is that free stuff just isn't anywhere near as good, and you get what you pay for...

It really depends on the student.
The primary difference between Khan Academy and Princeton Review is motivation.
At princeton review, you sit inn a class and are spoon fed the material.
With Khan academy, you have to be more self motivated.

We have seen (at least at highly selective institutions) that test scores do not reflect wealth. They reflect academic ability.
See Opportunity Inisights research on the SATs

But academic ability is so greatly enhanced by wealth. I mean places like Princeton review guarantee 200+ point improvement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The new system is underselecting for test scores and content knowledge. In a competitive magnet, students should not be failing SOLs that are set at minimum grade level content. There had never been a reading, science or math SOL failure prior to the new admissions changes. Now there are multiple, which is a disservice to those students.

Do you have a citation for this? TJ has been around for over 35 years in its current form.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The new system is underselecting for test scores and content knowledge. In a competitive magnet, students should not be failing SOLs that are set at minimum grade level content. There had never been a reading, science or math SOL failure prior to the new admissions changes. Now there are multiple, which is a disservice to those students.

Do you have a citation for this? TJ has been around for over 35 years in its current form.

Not necessary since it's a well established fact.