We need homes. A lot of homes. Not just affordable, but also middle-income homes.

[Anonymous]

*Rezoning, not refining

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree DC needs more middle income housing. While we are building more townhomes and condos, the townhomes are still often out of reach for true middle income people (HHI <150-180k). And most condos in the city are not built for families (few units with more than 2 bedrooms, emphasis on amenities likely to appeal to childless professionals but not necessarily to families). All the incentives in DC are to build high end units with a small footprint so as to squeeze as much profit as possible out of real estate.

There are some incentives for low-income and subsidized units, but developers seek to merely qualify for the bare minimum of these, and middle income folks often don’t qualify.

It us very hard to find adequate housing in DC for a middle income family. Close in suburbs are often no better because while there is more family housing, it is largely less dense and therefore no more accessible. Far out suburbs are cheaper and have family housing, but long commutes are particularly hard on families due to childcare needs and the importance of family time on the health and well-being of kids and marriages. And mid-income people are often less able to work remotely because they are more likely to work in service jobs (teaching, non-doctor healthcare roles) or customer-facing industries (food, retail, events).

So yes, we need more duplex and triplexes, more pop ups, more 3+ bedroom apartments, more townhouses near public transit.

Notice I’m not even saying we need this stuff near “good” schools or in more desirable neighborhoods. Families will accept middling schools and less perfect neighborhoods if they can just get on the property ladder. Right now, other than EOTR, and a handful of far NE and SE neighborhoods WOTR (many of which have poor transit options) there are very few options. And prices in places like Hyattsville, Silver Spring, and Mt. Rainier are rapidly moving out of reach as well.

If your only options for housing in DC for a family of 4 with an HHI of 150k involve an hour plus commute, people will just choose to leave.

You are writing off half of the city. That’s like me saying i should be able to live in Manhattan. You want to live on the red line. It is the most expensive part of the city. You need to let it go. Plenty of real estate out there. Send your kids to parochial school or advocate for better dc schools. Get over your entitlement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you think all of the townhomes, pseudo townhomes, and condos are? That’s middle housing and DMV is an outlier that it is actually building it.

What you socialists forget though is the market. Many don’t want to live with shared walls and overcrowded streets, far from jobs. At least not at the minimum price point that these things can be built for. That’s why there is a lack of housing at an entry level.

That and starter homes are a terrible investment and for condos basically entrapment.

In other areas, when home prices exceed what the majority of the market can pay, developers are building smaller to meet the price point.

Again it’s the market. Not just zoning, which is relatively permissive when it comes to density around here.

Never mind you or anyone else can buy in Anacostia right now. Super affordable. The problem is everything else, like safety and schools. Not zoning.

The simple answer is to take 10-20 acres and building 200 plus townhouses. Create a nice townhouse community. Given the number (200), there are unlikely to be super end. Create an incentive for a builder to make them middle income. There are plenty of places along in DC and along Rockville Pike where you can these communities.

If you drive up 270, you’ll see tons of places like this. Farmers sell off their land to developers. That is really the property exchange that makes this possible. Simply refining gets you a weird hodgepodge when some homeowners sell to developers and some don’t. If city planners want denser housing they should pay people out and raze a neighborhood to build what they are looking for.

These are the same thing. Farmer sells land to developer, developer puts in homes. Property owners in city sell to developer, developer puts in homes. In both cases existing residents whine about change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you think all of the townhomes, pseudo townhomes, and condos are? That’s middle housing and DMV is an outlier that it is actually building it.

What you socialists forget though is the market. Many don’t want to live with shared walls and overcrowded streets, far from jobs. At least not at the minimum price point that these things can be built for. That’s why there is a lack of housing at an entry level.

That and starter homes are a terrible investment and for condos basically entrapment.

In other areas, when home prices exceed what the majority of the market can pay, developers are building smaller to meet the price point.

Again it’s the market. Not just zoning, which is relatively permissive when it comes to density around here.

Never mind you or anyone else can buy in Anacostia right now. Super affordable. The problem is everything else, like safety and schools. Not zoning.

The simple answer is to take 10-20 acres and building 200 plus townhouses. Create a nice townhouse community. Given the number (200), there are unlikely to be super end. Create an incentive for a builder to make them middle income. There are plenty of places along in DC and along Rockville Pike where you can these communities.

If you drive up 270, you’ll see tons of places like this. Farmers sell off their land to developers. That is really the property exchange that makes this possible. Simply refining gets you a weird hodgepodge when some homeowners sell to developers and some don’t. If city planners want denser housing they should pay people out and raze a neighborhood to build what they are looking for.

These are the same thing. Farmer sells land to developer, developer puts in homes. Property owners in city sell to developer, developer puts in homes. In both cases existing residents whine about change.

There is plenty of space in DC that could be converted to sizable townhouse communities. Not simply a few acres. Create mini-Georgetowns in multiple parts of the city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Legalize building stuff on your own property.

Awesome. I’m going to build a medical waste processing facility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree DC needs more middle income housing. While we are building more townhomes and condos, the townhomes are still often out of reach for true middle income people (HHI <150-180k). And most condos in the city are not built for families (few units with more than 2 bedrooms, emphasis on amenities likely to appeal to childless professionals but not necessarily to families). All the incentives in DC are to build high end units with a small footprint so as to squeeze as much profit as possible out of real estate.

There are some incentives for low-income and subsidized units, but developers seek to merely qualify for the bare minimum of these, and middle income folks often don’t qualify.

It us very hard to find adequate housing in DC for a middle income family. Close in suburbs are often no better because while there is more family housing, it is largely less dense and therefore no more accessible. Far out suburbs are cheaper and have family housing, but long commutes are particularly hard on families due to childcare needs and the importance of family time on the health and well-being of kids and marriages. And mid-income people are often less able to work remotely because they are more likely to work in service jobs (teaching, non-doctor healthcare roles) or customer-facing industries (food, retail, events).

So yes, we need more duplex and triplexes, more pop ups, more 3+ bedroom apartments, more townhouses near public transit.

Notice I’m not even saying we need this stuff near “good” schools or in more desirable neighborhoods. Families will accept middling schools and less perfect neighborhoods if they can just get on the property ladder. Right now, other than EOTR, and a handful of far NE and SE neighborhoods WOTR (many of which have poor transit options) there are very few options. And prices in places like Hyattsville, Silver Spring, and Mt. Rainier are rapidly moving out of reach as well.

If your only options for housing in DC for a family of 4 with an HHI of 150k involve an hour plus commute, people will just choose to leave.

You are writing off half of the city. That’s like me saying i should be able to live in Manhattan. You want to live on the red line. It is the most expensive part of the city. You need to let it go. Plenty of real estate out there. Send your kids to parochial school or advocate for better dc schools. Get over your entitlement.

Exactly. The only reason why Logan Circle is even a rich neighborhood today is that people got over the entitlement of living west of 16th. When I first arrived to DC Logan Circle was impoverished and dangerous. People seriously need to get over themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree DC needs more middle income housing. While we are building more townhomes and condos, the townhomes are still often out of reach for true middle income people (HHI <150-180k). And most condos in the city are not built for families (few units with more than 2 bedrooms, emphasis on amenities likely to appeal to childless professionals but not necessarily to families). All the incentives in DC are to build high end units with a small footprint so as to squeeze as much profit as possible out of real estate.

There are some incentives for low-income and subsidized units, but developers seek to merely qualify for the bare minimum of these, and middle income folks often don’t qualify.

It us very hard to find adequate housing in DC for a middle income family. Close in suburbs are often no better because while there is more family housing, it is largely less dense and therefore no more accessible. Far out suburbs are cheaper and have family housing, but long commutes are particularly hard on families due to childcare needs and the importance of family time on the health and well-being of kids and marriages. And mid-income people are often less able to work remotely because they are more likely to work in service jobs (teaching, non-doctor healthcare roles) or customer-facing industries (food, retail, events).

So yes, we need more duplex and triplexes, more pop ups, more 3+ bedroom apartments, more townhouses near public transit.

Notice I’m not even saying we need this stuff near “good” schools or in more desirable neighborhoods. Families will accept middling schools and less perfect neighborhoods if they can just get on the property ladder. Right now, other than EOTR, and a handful of far NE and SE neighborhoods WOTR (many of which have poor transit options) there are very few options. And prices in places like Hyattsville, Silver Spring, and Mt. Rainier are rapidly moving out of reach as well.

If your only options for housing in DC for a family of 4 with an HHI of 150k involve an hour plus commute, people will just choose to leave.

This is delusional. More density and more housing does not result in cheaper housing. Cf. Manhattan, Toronto, or basically anywhere. Unless it is greenfield exurban developments, infill new housing will always be a market leader for price and this is an international phenomenon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree DC needs more middle income housing. While we are building more townhomes and condos, the townhomes are still often out of reach for true middle income people (HHI <150-180k). And most condos in the city are not built for families (few units with more than 2 bedrooms, emphasis on amenities likely to appeal to childless professionals but not necessarily to families). All the incentives in DC are to build high end units with a small footprint so as to squeeze as much profit as possible out of real estate.

There are some incentives for low-income and subsidized units, but developers seek to merely qualify for the bare minimum of these, and middle income folks often don’t qualify.

It us very hard to find adequate housing in DC for a middle income family. Close in suburbs are often no better because while there is more family housing, it is largely less dense and therefore no more accessible. Far out suburbs are cheaper and have family housing, but long commutes are particularly hard on families due to childcare needs and the importance of family time on the health and well-being of kids and marriages. And mid-income people are often less able to work remotely because they are more likely to work in service jobs (teaching, non-doctor healthcare roles) or customer-facing industries (food, retail, events).

So yes, we need more duplex and triplexes, more pop ups, more 3+ bedroom apartments, more townhouses near public transit.

Notice I’m not even saying we need this stuff near “good” schools or in more desirable neighborhoods. Families will accept middling schools and less perfect neighborhoods if they can just get on the property ladder. Right now, other than EOTR, and a handful of far NE and SE neighborhoods WOTR (many of which have poor transit options) there are very few options. And prices in places like Hyattsville, Silver Spring, and Mt. Rainier are rapidly moving out of reach as well.

If your only options for housing in DC for a family of 4 with an HHI of 150k involve an hour plus commute, people will just choose to leave.

You are writing off half of the city. That’s like me saying i should be able to live in Manhattan. You want to live on the red line. It is the most expensive part of the city. You need to let it go. Plenty of real estate out there. Send your kids to parochial school or advocate for better dc schools. Get over your entitlement.

Exactly. The only reason why Logan Circle is even a rich neighborhood today is that people got over the entitlement of living west of 16th. When I first arrived to DC Logan Circle was impoverished and dangerous. People seriously need to get over themselves.

True, but the people who decided to get over themselves and move to Logan circle first were not, by and large, families with children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you think all of the townhomes, pseudo townhomes, and condos are? That’s middle housing and DMV is an outlier that it is actually building it.

What you socialists forget though is the market. Many don’t want to live with shared walls and overcrowded streets, far from jobs. At least not at the minimum price point that these things can be built for. That’s why there is a lack of housing at an entry level.

That and starter homes are a terrible investment and for condos basically entrapment.

In other areas, when home prices exceed what the majority of the market can pay, developers are building smaller to meet the price point.

Again it’s the market. Not just zoning, which is relatively permissive when it comes to density around here.

Never mind you or anyone else can buy in Anacostia right now. Super affordable. The problem is everything else, like safety and schools. Not zoning.

The simple answer is to take 10-20 acres and building 200 plus townhouses. Create a nice townhouse community. Given the number (200), there are unlikely to be super end. Create an incentive for a builder to make them middle income. There are plenty of places along in DC and along Rockville Pike where you can these communities.

If you drive up 270, you’ll see tons of places like this. Farmers sell off their land to developers. That is really the property exchange that makes this possible. Simply refining gets you a weird hodgepodge when some homeowners sell to developers and some don’t. If city planners want denser housing they should pay people out and raze a neighborhood to build what they are looking for.

These are the same thing. Farmer sells land to developer, developer puts in homes. Property owners in city sell to developer, developer puts in homes. In both cases existing residents whine about change.

But where has something like that happened in the city? You just don’t see big new developments like that anywhere where there wasn’t previously empty land. I was just visiting a friend by the Forest Glen metro and there is a relatively new, small development of townhomes virtually next to the metro. Anyone know how those came about? Was wondering if that was a case where a chain of homeowners sold to developers or if the land previously didn’t have SFH at all. My friend didn’t know (but said they were out of their price range, they got a fixer upper a half mile away).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The only way you can tell whether housing is expensive is by comparing its price to people's incomes. If the average home in DC cost $10 million but the average income in DC was $20 million, housing would be dirt cheap.

Salaries in DC are very high on average (there are gym teachers for DCPS that make six figures). And that's why housing here isn't as expensive as people like to think. Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies says housing prices in DC are comparable to places like Richmond, Virginia once you take into account how much people make.

https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/home-price-income-ratios

+1

People will be very disappointed to learn that housing here isn't that expensive

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The only way you can tell whether housing is expensive is by comparing its price to people's incomes. If the average home in DC cost $10 million but the average income in DC was $20 million, housing would be dirt cheap.

Salaries in DC are very high on average (there are gym teachers for DCPS that make six figures). And that's why housing here isn't as expensive as people like to think. Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies says housing prices in DC are comparable to places like Richmond, Virginia once you take into account how much people make.

https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/home-price-income-ratios

+1

People will be very disappointed to learn that housing here isn't that expensive

Yep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree DC needs more middle income housing. While we are building more townhomes and condos, the townhomes are still often out of reach for true middle income people (HHI <150-180k). And most condos in the city are not built for families (few units with more than 2 bedrooms, emphasis on amenities likely to appeal to childless professionals but not necessarily to families). All the incentives in DC are to build high end units with a small footprint so as to squeeze as much profit as possible out of real estate.

There are some incentives for low-income and subsidized units, but developers seek to merely qualify for the bare minimum of these, and middle income folks often don’t qualify.

It us very hard to find adequate housing in DC for a middle income family. Close in suburbs are often no better because while there is more family housing, it is largely less dense and therefore no more accessible. Far out suburbs are cheaper and have family housing, but long commutes are particularly hard on families due to childcare needs and the importance of family time on the health and well-being of kids and marriages. And mid-income people are often less able to work remotely because they are more likely to work in service jobs (teaching, non-doctor healthcare roles) or customer-facing industries (food, retail, events).

So yes, we need more duplex and triplexes, more pop ups, more 3+ bedroom apartments, more townhouses near public transit.

Notice I’m not even saying we need this stuff near “good” schools or in more desirable neighborhoods. Families will accept middling schools and less perfect neighborhoods if they can just get on the property ladder. Right now, other than EOTR, and a handful of far NE and SE neighborhoods WOTR (many of which have poor transit options) there are very few options. And prices in places like Hyattsville, Silver Spring, and Mt. Rainier are rapidly moving out of reach as well.

If your only options for housing in DC for a family of 4 with an HHI of 150k involve an hour plus commute, people will just choose to leave.

You are writing off half of the city. That’s like me saying i should be able to live in Manhattan. You want to live on the red line. It is the most expensive part of the city. You need to let it go. Plenty of real estate out there. Send your kids to parochial school or advocate for better dc schools. Get over your entitlement.

I said EOTR, not EOTP. I am talking specifically about the shift in housing prices in NE and SE DC, including where the schools are less desirable. I don't live on the red line and am not trying to. And I'm not looking for some unicorn 500k single family home in CCDC. I'm saying it's becoming increasingly hard to find family housing in neighborhoods like Trinidad, Kingman Park, Michigan Park and other previously working class neighborhoods, for less than 750k. And I'm not even talking about single family homes here. As I said, we need more multi-family housing that is actually designed for families. I'd happily live in a condo, but since I have kids, I can't live in a 700 sq foot luxury condo with a loft bedroom and a rooftop pool. But that's what developers are building.

You need to get over yourself. You assume everyone is obsessed with living in UNW and being IB for some special school pyramid, and that when people complain about housing costs, this is what they mean. No. You now need 800-900k to by a row home in Trinidad. That's out of reach for most middle class people unless they have family money or something. And that's to live in a neighborhood a mile from the metro, with a Title 1 K-8. And you see similar things in Kingman Park, Brookland, Michigan Park, etc. I don't even care about NW DC, it's not on my radar. I'm talking about the rest of the city.

Oh, and before you ask, my issue with EOTR is that the city has abandoned it for decades and it has limited infrastructure and lacks basic amenities like grocery stores and healthcare. Don't sit there and tell me DC is affordable because you can find a SFH in Anacostia for 500k, that has no public transport options to downtown and where you are going to have to drive across the river just to get food for dinner. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[Anonymous]

Folks making 90-120k a year just adjust if they want anything resembling schools that aren't 90%+ FARMS.

If they're Black they live in the nicer parts of Prince George's. If they're Hispanic, they live in parts of Northern VA or Silver Spring. If they're White, they live in Frederick or Winchester.

Or they accept living in a TH in Loudoun or Montgomery is their lot in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Folks making 90-120k a year just adjust if they want anything resembling schools that aren't 90%+ FARMS.

If they're Black they live in the nicer parts of Prince George's. If they're Hispanic, they live in parts of Northern VA or Silver Spring. If they're White, they live in Frederick or Winchester.

Or they accept living in a TH in Loudoun or Montgomery is their lot in life.

This is very true. At some point, everyone needs to make concessions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Folks making 90-120k a year just adjust if they want anything resembling schools that aren't 90%+ FARMS.

If they're Black they live in the nicer parts of Prince George's. If they're Hispanic, they live in parts of Northern VA or Silver Spring. If they're White, they live in Frederick or Winchester.

Or they accept living in a TH in Loudoun or Montgomery is their lot in life.

(yep).