How bad are Montgomery County Schools?

[Anonymous]

With regard to concerns over too much testing, aren't private schools subject to the same requirements as public schools? In Maryland, don't all schools have to administer the Maryland State Assessments in grades 3 to 8?

[Anonymous]

I can't speak for Maryland, but I have a child in a Montessori elementary school in Virginia. No tests at all, assessment or otherwise, through 6th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:With regard to concerns over too much testing, aren't private schools subject to the same requirements as public schools? In Maryland, don't all schools have to administer the Maryland State Assessments in grades 3 to 8?

No, that is why many people pay tons of money for private school. They are privately funded and if they don't accept state or local funds, they don't have to do what the state and federal gov't mandates. So that means they can test as little or as much as they want. Most privates seem to test in late ES with some kind of national test like the old Iowa Test of Basic Skills or Cal. Achievement Test or whatever they have these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:10:54 here, and I agree with the PP to an extent. I went to private schools in MoCo K-12, and I have nieces, nephews, and family friends in private school in DC and MoCo, so I know what goes on in those schools. So I'm wondering what folks think happens in the privates that is so different from MCPS in terms of assessing and grouping, etc.? And for folks looking into the privates, please be sure to ask about the credentials and educational backgrounds of the teachers. In MCPS, all teachers earned undergrad degrees in Education -- and then they must work towards a Masters or equivalency in short order (as well as routinely doing continuing education courses). This isn't the case in the privates. I could go get a job at a private school with my BS and masters (even though neither is education-related and I haven't received any formal instruction as to how to teach children).

Two things. First, WRT assessment and grouping, our private school begins ability grouping in math at grade 4, when a lot of data are available. Our MCPS begins it at kindergarten, I believe, when only very limited data are available. I prefer the former approach. Our private school also does much less assessment during the school year than MCPS schools are required to do.

As for your second point, it's true that some private schools don't require education degrees or credentialing. Others do, however. Our school has fairly significant requirements in terms of pedagogy training (though having been a professor in a college of education I'm less inclined to think that's wonderful than some others might!). Our private school also provides a lot of support, financial and otherwise, for ongoing professional development. I imagine it's as good or better than MoCo on that point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With regard to concerns over too much testing, aren't private schools subject to the same requirements as public schools? In Maryland, don't all schools have to administer the Maryland State Assessments in grades 3 to 8?

No, that is why many people pay tons of money for private school .... Most privates seem to test in late ES with some kind of national test like the old Iowa Test of Basic Skills or Cal. Achievement Test or whatever they have these days.

Is that really correct? I was talking to someone a week ago who mentioned that her 3rd or 4th grader's class in private school was about to take the ERB test. And the NAEP data includes summaries of private school scores, so it seems that many private schools must be taking at least some of the same tests as public schools (perhaps voluntarily?).

I clearly don't know too much about this topic, but I had thought the major concern with the public school tests is that teacher/school reviews are directly linked to scores on the tests, so there is huge pressure to do well on the tests, which leads to "teaching to the test." By contrast, for private schools, the test results are unimportant, so the schools don't need to spend much time preparing for the tests, even if they do administer them. My point is that the big concern about standardized tests is not the relatively small loss of one day of classroom time to take the tests -- instead it's the loss of weeks of classroom time spent preparing for the tests that concerns people. That's my weak understanding of the situation, so someone will probably correct me on the details/nuances.

[Anonymous]

Why would it be advantageous to wait an addtional four years for ability grouping?

[Anonymous]

13:42- Yes, any test that a private school (not using public tax dollars) is voluntary. They choose what to administer, when to administer it, etc. If they happen to choose a test that a public schools gives, it is their own decision. And yes, many privates administer the ERB too in upper elementary. The major difference is that tests like the ERB give individual scores to each test taker (Johnny scored in the 97% overall, etc) whereas in public school, the scores are more for the school's own "report card" which is carefully scrutinized. In fact, the students taking the MSA don't receive individual score reports with specific % on them. They are told whether they scored proficient, advanced, etc but that's it. The scores in public school are for the school, district and county's use really. In private school, the score is mostly for the parents and the teachers benefit.

[Anonymous]

If you think test scores are a valid indicator of MCPS' superiority, you might want to read this article about how none of MCPS' schools were ranked in the top 100 this year:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/local/Thomas-Jefferson-tops-list-of-best-high-schools-8648394-79013467.html

with the following quote:
"Montgomery officials expressed some surprise about the results, said spokesman Dana Tofig. He expressed wariness over U.S. News' method that relies upon state test scores, "which have proven to be pretty unreliable measures," he said."

I never have thought that test scores counted for much and these rankings are a bunch of hooey also. I just find it hilarious how MCPS has changed their tune after years of trumpeting how great their test scores are.

[Anonymous]

I'm confused. MCPS has a reputation for be highly academic and challenging kids to the point that folks contemplate redshirting their kids with summer birthdays (as evidenced by numerous threads here), and yet some folks feel like their kids aren't being challenged enough. MCPS has a uniform curriculum and kids are assessed in the same way whether you live in Potomac or Wheaton, so while slight variances can exist, generally speaking all classes (and policies) are pretty much the same. Go figure.

[Anonymous]

"I'm confused. MCPS has a reputation for be highly academic and challenging kids to the point that folks contemplate redshirting their kids with summer birthdays (as evidenced by numerous threads here), and yet some folks feel like their kids aren't being challenged enough. MCPS has a uniform curriculum and kids are assessed in the same way whether you live in Potomac or Wheaton, so while slight variances can exist, generally speaking all classes (and policies) are pretty much the same. Go figure. "

This may speak to the rigidity of the program and the teaching to the test mentality. It only works for kids within a certain range. It sounds as if any kid who falls below or above the magic range of what they are doing and how they are doing is miserable. They could also be off balanced. If people are red shirting kids because the school deals poorly with kids at different activity levels then you will have more kids bored with the curriculum because they never lacked intellect capabilities.

[Anonymous]

14:59 back again. To the PP: I don't buy that. My sister has taught for MCPS for nearly 15 years at a very diverse (socially and economically) school. She has a broad range of kids --- from two-parent homes/classic yuppie types to those recently arrived from other countries or born to addict moms and everything in between. She does not teach to the middle. Rather, she breaks the kids into groups/abilities, etc and must find a way for each and every kid (regardless of their academic ability) to be challenged and to learn. So she doesn't do just one lesson plan --- it's tweaked for the various groups. And while my sister is a rockstar teacher IMHO, I'm sure she isn't the only MCPS teacher like this. Because of NCLB and MCPS standards, all teachers are expected to perform and deliver results. And there are no miserable kids in my sister's class --- nor are there any miserable kids in my kid's class (at another MCPS school in a different part of the county). To the PP: do you have kids in MCPS, or are you basing your comments on something else?

[Anonymous]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2009/12/whats_with_the_new_us_news_hig.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:59 back again. To the PP: I don't buy that. My sister has taught for MCPS for nearly 15 years at a very diverse (socially and economically) school. She has a broad range of kids --- from two-parent homes/classic yuppie types to those recently arrived from other countries or born to addict moms and everything in between. She does not teach to the middle. Rather, she breaks the kids into groups/abilities, etc and must find a way for each and every kid (regardless of their academic ability) to be challenged and to learn. So she doesn't do just one lesson plan --- it's tweaked for the various groups. And while my sister is a rockstar teacher IMHO, I'm sure she isn't the only MCPS teacher like this. Because of NCLB and MCPS standards, all teachers are expected to perform and deliver results. And there are no miserable kids in my sister's class --- nor are there any miserable kids in my kid's class (at another MCPS school in a different part of the county). To the PP: do you have kids in MCPS, or are you basing your comments on something else?

It depends on the teacher--what you describe with your sister sure did not happen at our school, where DC (who entered K reading fluently and doing advanced math) was NOT differentiated, and the school told us flat out that they couldn't. We now have friends at yet another MCPS school who right now are fighting for their first-grader to be given even second-grade math (let alone higher), and the school is not complying, despite the fact that this child already has mastered the first and second-grade math curricula.

[Anonymous]

I think a lot depends on the make-up of the class at the particular school. If you have a child who is so advanced, he or she doesn't have apeer group, it is going to be harder for teachers to differentiate instruction for just that one chiled. If your child is in a class with 10 others at the similar level, then it becomes more feasible.

[Anonymous]

Our kids have attended a well-regarded MCPS elementary school, and, for middle and high school, two different independent schools, one in DC and one in MoCo. All three schools had their plusses and minuses, and the two private schools were very different. Our experience suggests that 1) no school is perfect, and 2) no school is right for every kid. We feel fortunate to have found schools where each of our kids is happy and thriving; however, I would never endorse an individual school, let alone an entire category of schools, as "bad" or "good" for all kids. Framing this debate in terms of public v. private, as it frequently is on DCUM, is simply divisive and unenlightening. Finally, I'll note that much of the information presented here as fact is flat-out wrong, including, but not limited to, the claim that MCPS elementary school teachers are required to have undergraduate degrees in education.