Yu Ying - Do/Can Non-Native Kids Actually SPEAK Chinese?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know these two slights can't be true simultaneously, right? (For the curious, the second one is much closer to the mark.)

Anonymous wrote:No, the YY ELA PARCC scores aren't good, not for the demographic.

Anonymous wrote:The elephant in the room is that they can't afford homes in Upper NW, or the Brent or Maury Districts.

Not the PP who wrote this, but they actually can be true.

Plenty of white, highly educated parents whose kids should be doing well on PARCC regardless, who are living outside the zones for those schools because they work in the public or nonprofit sector.

Yu Ying is just under 30% white. This being DC, one can assume that at least the majority of that 30% is at least well-off (because poor white parents in this region mostly live in the suburbs, not in DC). Not so for the other 70% of the school (because parents of other races are more evenly represented across the SES spectrum in DC). To suggest that Yu Ying's student body is demographically comparable to a DCPS serving Upper Caucasia is just laughable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a Canadian academic researcher who studies education reform, mainly looking at the effectiveness of secondary programs in my country. If only it were true that the the pay off can be negligible or even negative is not supported by any evidence.

In fact, there is a sizeable corpus of academic literature, mainly contributed by Canadian and Nordic commentators in the last 20 years, proving that language immersion done poorly (via one-way immersion, and/or immersion ending before age 12 or 13) does indeed set students back in the dominant language. The new research has prompted our provincial governments, particularly Quebec, to alter modes of delivery of public language immersion products.

Since the mid 1990s, Canada has largely stopped offering YuYing style "50% immersion in target language" to families unable to support immersion at home, with at least one adult in the home speaking the target language well. As a result, more and more Canadian schools offers public immersion programs (dual or two-way immersion) only admitting children with at least one native speaker in the home, along with more second tier programs offering about 25% immersion in the language to others.

What we've found in Canada is that 50% one-way immersion disadvantages students from monolingual families on university admissions examinations given in English. I am aware that the strongest public K-8 American immersion and partial immersion program, mainly found in county and municipal school systems in California, North Carolina, Utah and New York, have heeded the relevant research in developing their immersion programs. I don't know the DC politics of education reform well enough to know why DCPC has not followed suit.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.macleans.ca/education/just-say-non-the-problem-with-french-immersion/amp/

[Anonymous]

Maybe that's why YY has an non-immersion track for the kids who need extra focus on non-Chinese basics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a Canadian academic researcher who studies education reform, mainly looking at the effectiveness of secondary programs in my country. If only it were true that the the pay off can be negligible or even negative is not supported by any evidence.

In fact, there is a sizeable corpus of academic literature, mainly contributed by Canadian and Nordic commentators in the last 20 years, proving that language immersion done poorly (via one-way immersion, and/or immersion ending before age 12 or 13) does indeed set students back in the dominant language. The new research has prompted our provincial governments, particularly Quebec, to alter modes of delivery of public language immersion products.

Since the mid 1990s, Canada has largely stopped offering YuYing style "50% immersion in target language" to families unable to support immersion at home, with at least one adult in the home speaking the target language well. As a result, more and more Canadian schools offers public immersion programs (dual or two-way immersion) only admitting children with at least one native speaker in the home, along with more second tier programs offering about 25% immersion in the language to others.

What we've found in Canada is that 50% one-way immersion disadvantages students from monolingual families on university admissions examinations given in English. I am aware that the strongest public K-8 American immersion and partial immersion program, mainly found in county and municipal school systems in California, North Carolina, Utah and New York, have heeded the relevant research in developing their immersion programs. I don't know the DC politics of education reform well enough to know why DCPC has not followed suit.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.macleans.ca/education/just-say-non-the-problem-with-french-immersion/amp/

Wow, sounds a lot like criticisms of charters here:

“What a program like French immersion does is it siphons off those kids who have engaged families who make sure the kids do all their homework,” says Andrew Campbell, a Grade 5 teacher in Brantford, Ont. “Because of that, the opportunities in the rest of the system are affected because the modelling and interaction those kids would provide for the other kids in the system aren’t there anymore.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are immersion programs in German, French, and Japanese in Fairfax county where the language is not necessarily supported at home and there are not all that many heritage speakers in the program. Can anyone compare and contrast those programs to YY in terms of how successful the language learning is in these programs?

There's more money and seriousness of purpose in Fairfax county in the immersion calculus than in DC, other than maybe for Spanish at Oyster. I've had conversations about the set up with the Quebecois Maury ES principal on Cap Hill about all this -she was the head of a French immersion program in Fairfax before DCPS. In Fairfax, loads of au pairs, tutors, summer immersion camps (including abroad), weekend heritage programs with native speakers nearby, strong IBD HS programs offering Higher Level language classes, awaiting etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are immersion programs in German, French, and Japanese in Fairfax county where the language is not necessarily supported at home and there are not all that many heritage speakers in the program. Can anyone compare and contrast those programs to YY in terms of how successful the language learning is in these programs?

There's more money and seriousness of purpose in Fairfax county in the immersion calculus than in DC, other than maybe for Spanish at Oyster. I've had conversations about the set up with the Quebecois Maury ES principal on Cap Hill about all this -she was the head of a French immersion program in Fairfax before DCPS. In Fairfax, loads of au pairs, tutors, summer immersion camps (including abroad), weekend heritage programs with native speakers nearby, strong IBD HS programs offering Higher Level language classes, awaiting etc.

Fairfax County is the third richest county in the country, and the public school system has a FARMS rate of 28%. DC's FARMS rate is still over 75%.

They can literally and figuratively afford things that DC cannot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know these two slights can't be true simultaneously, right? (For the curious, the second one is much closer to the mark.)

Anonymous wrote:No, the YY ELA PARCC scores aren't good, not for the demographic.

Anonymous wrote:The elephant in the room is that they can't afford homes in Upper NW, or the Brent or Maury Districts.

Not the PP who wrote this, but they actually can be true.

Plenty of white, highly educated parents whose kids should be doing well on PARCC regardless, who are living outside the zones for those schools because they work in the public or nonprofit sector.

meh, some of both. There are plenty of YY parents who own million-dollar homes in Brookland, Crestwood, Capitol Hill, and elsewhere. I own a home in upper NW that I rent out. I know YY kids who are zoned for Brent, Lafayette, Janney, Ludlow Taylor, Key and Hyde off the top of my head. Some parents are choosing to buy in 16th Street heights, Shepard Park or Takoma to be closer to DCI. We like that there are an interesting mix of professional families--plenty of lawyers and IT folks but also teachers, non-profits, government employees and other do-gooders. Lots of racial and religious diversity that we might not see in all the JKLM schools. We are not worried about our children's English skills, though they are still too young for PARCC. YMMV.

Come on, there are one or two longtime YY families from each JKLM district, and one or two from Brent. As a former YY parent whose first language is Mandarin, I can tell you that these kids don't really speak Chinese. The diversity at YY is terrific, not the Chinese, or the math or ELA instruction. The PA isn't that great either, because people have trouble commuting to meetings.

To speak good Chinese, you need to spend a lot of time around people who speak it and who speak it to you, not just teachers and tutors. My college roommate who isn't a native speaker grew up in San Fran Chinatown. His Chinese is a lot better than that of most of my ABC friends.

OP's question was do non native YY kids actually speak Chinese. Answer, not really unless the families have hosted Chinese speaking au pairs for many years, and insisted that the kids not answer the au pairs in English. There are only a dozen YY families in that category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are immersion programs in German, French, and Japanese in Fairfax county where the language is not necessarily supported at home and there are not all that many heritage speakers in the program. Can anyone compare and contrast those programs to YY in terms of how successful the language learning is in these programs?

There's more money and seriousness of purpose in Fairfax county in the immersion calculus than in DC, other than maybe for Spanish at Oyster. I've had conversations about the set up with the Quebecois Maury ES principal on Cap Hill about all this -she was the head of a French immersion program in Fairfax before DCPS. In Fairfax, loads of au pairs, tutors, summer immersion camps (including abroad), weekend heritage programs with native speakers nearby, strong IBD HS programs offering Higher Level language classes, awaiting etc.

Fairfax County is the third richest county in the country, and the public school system has a FARMS rate of 28%. DC's FARMS rate is still over 75%.

They can literally and figuratively afford things that DC cannot.

Right, and that's what makes immersion work without a native speaker in the home. Wish it weren't true, but it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know these two slights can't be true simultaneously, right? (For the curious, the second one is much closer to the mark.)

Anonymous wrote:No, the YY ELA PARCC scores aren't good, not for the demographic.

Anonymous wrote:The elephant in the room is that they can't afford homes in Upper NW, or the Brent or Maury Districts.

Not the PP who wrote this, but they actually can be true.

Plenty of white, highly educated parents whose kids should be doing well on PARCC regardless, who are living outside the zones for those schools because they work in the public or nonprofit sector.

meh, some of both. There are plenty of YY parents who own million-dollar homes in Brookland, Crestwood, Capitol Hill, and elsewhere. I own a home in upper NW that I rent out. I know YY kids who are zoned for Brent, Lafayette, Janney, Ludlow Taylor, Key and Hyde off the top of my head. Some parents are choosing to buy in 16th Street heights, Shepard Park or Takoma to be closer to DCI. We like that there are an interesting mix of professional families--plenty of lawyers and IT folks but also teachers, non-profits, government employees and other do-gooders. Lots of racial and religious diversity that we might not see in all the JKLM schools. We are not worried about our children's English skills, though they are still too young for PARCC. YMMV.

Come on, there are one or two longtime YY families from each JKLM district, and one or two from Brent. As a former YY parent whose first language is Mandarin, I can tell you that these kids don't really speak Chinese. The diversity at YY is terrific, not the Chinese, or the math or ELA instruction. The PA isn't that great either, because people have trouble commuting to meetings.

To speak good Chinese, you need to spend a lot of time around people who speak it and who speak it to you, not just teachers and tutors. My college roommate who isn't a native speaker grew up in San Fran Chinatown. His Chinese is a lot better than that of most of my ABC friends.

OP's question was do non native YY kids actually speak Chinese. Answer, not really unless the families have hosted Chinese speaking au pairs for many years, and insisted that the kids not answer the au pairs in English. There are only a dozen YY families in that category.

I was responding to the person who claimed YY families couldn't afford to live in JKLM. We are aware of your family story because you have shared it at least 25 times on this forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The solution for the detractors, particularly given the waitlist at YY, would be for the "heritage speakers" to form their own charter school, however, like YY, they wouldn't be able to discriminate in favor of heritage-speaking children, obviously. At least, however, they would be able to hire an ED and teachers they that they feel speak Chinese well - and then, they would have less need to continually bash YY on DCUM.
The idea that "If you don't do immersion right, the pay off can be negligible or even negative" is simply not supported by any evidence. The pay-off of learning a language doesn't have to be grade-level fluency in the language per se - it teaches to cope with failure (something the offspring of millennials lack generally), to problem solve, to decode language, to relate to difference, to feel comfortable outside one's own culture. This is very valuable. It also encourages language learning as an adult. As to negative effects, the evidence suggests that a child in a bilingual or immersion environment may initially have fewer words in the dominant language - but that these deficiencies are temporary and the child catches up as they age. Being committed to bilingualism or immersion study requires parents to suppress their own egos that their child is the best English reader on the block or gotten a certain score as a four year old - because when the kid is ten their English will have caught up to their peers AND they will have SOME level of fluency in another language. My sister and her husband are fluent and native speakers of Spanish and their nanny is a Spanish speaker. Her daughters are the best English readers on the block and understand Spanish but don't speak it because my sister and her husband do not speak to them consistently in Spanish. My husband and I are fluent and native speakers of Italian and we chose to only speak Italian to our DC. DC is fluent in Italian and had little exposure/ interest in English until kindergarten, so he was an not an early English reader and he had fewer English words initially. He has more than caught up now - even though we continue to speak to him in Italian and he had an Italian au pair. However, I will never have the bragging rights to say my kid was reading the New York Times at three or scored the highest on the English test for his grade in kindergarten. I'm OK with that - and perhaps that's a class-based analysis -because DC has grandparents and parents who are college professors and lawyers so we know that the kid will always be surrounded by high level English speakers who can support and enrich later on. I might feel differentially if this were not the case.

No dog in this fight but can hear the anxiety YY parents are experiencing as they move toward DCI. What's clear is that the truth about what makes immersion programs work hurts.

What kind of BS suggestion is it for the "heritage speakers" to form their own charter? There's only one MS school in the DC system with enough Asian students for the numbers crunchers to pull out their PARCC scores by grade as a subgroup of 25 more - Deal. That's right, not DCI, Deal. East Asian immigrant parents are hardly seen in DC public past elementary.

Why don't you angry people stay off DCUM and have these chats at your PA and on your playground, where you can boost in unison? Who needs the stress?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know these two slights can't be true simultaneously, right? (For the curious, the second one is much closer to the mark.)

Anonymous wrote:No, the YY ELA PARCC scores aren't good, not for the demographic.

Anonymous wrote:The elephant in the room is that they can't afford homes in Upper NW, or the Brent or Maury Districts.

Not the PP who wrote this, but they actually can be true.

Plenty of white, highly educated parents whose kids should be doing well on PARCC regardless, who are living outside the zones for those schools because they work in the public or nonprofit sector.

meh, some of both. There are plenty of YY parents who own million-dollar homes in Brookland, Crestwood, Capitol Hill, and elsewhere. I own a home in upper NW that I rent out. I know YY kids who are zoned for Brent, Lafayette, Janney, Ludlow Taylor, Key and Hyde off the top of my head. Some parents are choosing to buy in 16th Street heights, Shepard Park or Takoma to be closer to DCI. We like that there are an interesting mix of professional families--plenty of lawyers and IT folks but also teachers, non-profits, government employees and other do-gooders. Lots of racial and religious diversity that we might not see in all the JKLM schools. We are not worried about our children's English skills, though they are still too young for PARCC. YMMV.

Come on, there are one or two longtime YY families from each JKLM district, and one or two from Brent. As a former YY parent whose first language is Mandarin, I can tell you that these kids don't really speak Chinese. The diversity at YY is terrific, not the Chinese, or the math or ELA instruction. The PA isn't that great either, because people have trouble commuting to meetings.

To speak good Chinese, you need to spend a lot of time around people who speak it and who speak it to you, not just teachers and tutors. My college roommate who isn't a native speaker grew up in San Fran Chinatown. His Chinese is a lot better than that of most of my ABC friends.

OP's question was do non native YY kids actually speak Chinese. Answer, not really unless the families have hosted Chinese speaking au pairs for many years, and insisted that the kids not answer the au pairs in English. There are only a dozen YY families in that category.

I was responding to the person who claimed YY families couldn't afford to live in JKLM. We are aware of your family story because you have shared it at least 25 times on this forum.

Let me revise the claim. Hardly any YY families can afford to live in JKLM or Brent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know these two slights can't be true simultaneously, right? (For the curious, the second one is much closer to the mark.)

Anonymous wrote:No, the YY ELA PARCC scores aren't good, not for the demographic.

Anonymous wrote:The elephant in the room is that they can't afford homes in Upper NW, or the Brent or Maury Districts.

Not the PP who wrote this, but they actually can be true.

Plenty of white, highly educated parents whose kids should be doing well on PARCC regardless, who are living outside the zones for those schools because they work in the public or nonprofit sector.

meh, some of both. There are plenty of YY parents who own million-dollar homes in Brookland, Crestwood, Capitol Hill, and elsewhere. I own a home in upper NW that I rent out. I know YY kids who are zoned for Brent, Lafayette, Janney, Ludlow Taylor, Key and Hyde off the top of my head. Some parents are choosing to buy in 16th Street heights, Shepard Park or Takoma to be closer to DCI. We like that there are an interesting mix of professional families--plenty of lawyers and IT folks but also teachers, non-profits, government employees and other do-gooders. Lots of racial and religious diversity that we might not see in all the JKLM schools. We are not worried about our children's English skills, though they are still too young for PARCC. YMMV.

Come on, there are one or two longtime YY families from each JKLM district, and one or two from Brent. As a former YY parent whose first language is Mandarin, I can tell you that these kids don't really speak Chinese. The diversity at YY is terrific, not the Chinese, or the math or ELA instruction. The PA isn't that great either, because people have trouble commuting to meetings.

To speak good Chinese, you need to spend a lot of time around people who speak it and who speak it to you, not just teachers and tutors. My college roommate who isn't a native speaker grew up in San Fran Chinatown. His Chinese is a lot better than that of most of my ABC friends.

OP's question was do non native YY kids actually speak Chinese. Answer, not really unless the families have hosted Chinese speaking au pairs for many years, and insisted that the kids not answer the au pairs in English. There are only a dozen YY families in that category.

I was responding to the person who claimed YY families couldn't afford to live in JKLM. We are aware of your family story because you have shared it at least 25 times on this forum.

Let me revise the claim. Hardly any YY families can afford to live in JKLM or Brent.

NP. God, you are insufferable. How could you possibly know whether this is true? You can't. You just can't seem to wrap your head around the possibility that there are many other reasons why people wouldn't want to live in JKLM or Brent. Staying away from snobby, status-obsessed people like you is one reason for avoiding JKLM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You know these two slights can't be true simultaneously, right? (For the curious, the second one is much closer to the mark.)

Anonymous wrote:No, the YY ELA PARCC scores aren't good, not for the demographic.

Anonymous wrote:The elephant in the room is that they can't afford homes in Upper NW, or the Brent or Maury Districts.

Not the PP who wrote this, but they actually can be true.

Plenty of white, highly educated parents whose kids should be doing well on PARCC regardless, who are living outside the zones for those schools because they work in the public or nonprofit sector.

meh, some of both. There are plenty of YY parents who own million-dollar homes in Brookland, Crestwood, Capitol Hill, and elsewhere. I own a home in upper NW that I rent out. I know YY kids who are zoned for Brent, Lafayette, Janney, Ludlow Taylor, Key and Hyde off the top of my head. Some parents are choosing to buy in 16th Street heights, Shepard Park or Takoma to be closer to DCI. We like that there are an interesting mix of professional families--plenty of lawyers and IT folks but also teachers, non-profits, government employees and other do-gooders. Lots of racial and religious diversity that we might not see in all the JKLM schools. We are not worried about our children's English skills, though they are still too young for PARCC. YMMV.

Come on, there are one or two longtime YY families from each JKLM district, and one or two from Brent. As a former YY parent whose first language is Mandarin, I can tell you that these kids don't really speak Chinese. The diversity at YY is terrific, not the Chinese, or the math or ELA instruction. The PA isn't that great either, because people have trouble commuting to meetings.

To speak good Chinese, you need to spend a lot of time around people who speak it and who speak it to you, not just teachers and tutors. My college roommate who isn't a native speaker grew up in San Fran Chinatown. His Chinese is a lot better than that of most of my ABC friends.

OP's question was do non native YY kids actually speak Chinese. Answer, not really unless the families have hosted Chinese speaking au pairs for many years, and insisted that the kids not answer the au pairs in English. There are only a dozen YY families in that category.

I was responding to the person who claimed YY families couldn't afford to live in JKLM. We are aware of your family story because you have shared it at least 25 times on this forum.

Let me revise the claim. Hardly any YY families can afford to live in JKLM or Brent.

Okay. Makes me wonder how many years ago you had kids at YY because you are pretty out of touch. Makes sense since your kids have taken multiple PARCC tests. Glad they're doing well and you are happy.

[Anonymous]

I am a Chinese national, a graduate student in DC with a young family, who is not out of touch.

I have been tutoring 2 YY students (siblings), for the past 2 years on a weekly basis when school is in session. The money is good and I am grateful for the work. Their parents tell me that they are among the best Mandarin speakers in their classes.

I volunteered at YY at an event last month, where I spoke to dozens of kids in Mandarin (my 3rd dialect, but the one I have used in my studies since age 5). Sorry, but the YY students' Chinese is really basic. They do not seem able to say things they have not been specifically trained to say by teachers. The odd kid speaks a little better than the others, but no student I've spoken to is anywhere near fluent. Some of the kids have good tones, many do not.

We rent a small apartment IB for a good DCPS to avoid charter schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a Chinese national, a graduate student in DC with a young family, who is not out of touch.

I have been tutoring 2 YY students (siblings), for the past 2 years on a weekly basis when school is in session. The money is good and I am grateful for the work. Their parents tell me that they are among the best Mandarin speakers in their classes.

I volunteered at YY at an event last month, where I spoke to dozens of kids in Mandarin (my 3rd dialect, but the one I have used in my studies since age 5). Sorry, but the YY students' Chinese is really basic. They do not seem able to say things they have not been specifically trained to say by teachers. The odd kid speaks a little better than the others, but no student I've spoken to is anywhere near fluent. Some of the kids have good tones, many do not.

We rent a small apartment IB for a good DCPS to avoid charter schools.

Sounds like those 2 kids need a better tutor if they've been working with you for 2 years and still basic!