Science channel's "Biblical Mysteries Explained"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that we've gone off topic, I have a question for Muslim poster, who wrote:

She had no idea about sura Ash Shurra and the verse that addressed men AND women on how to resolve (political) matters that required collective opinions. She could not read Arabic so she had no idea the language used in that verse was plural, addressing women too.

I don't see how the plural used shows definitively that both men and women were being addressed. In Arabic, the same plural is used when it is men only being addressed or men and women being addressed. I don't know what grounds one would use to say one or other was meant. All that we know is that women only were not being addressed as that is a different plural.

So it's like French and Spanish, if only in the sense that you use the masculine plural for a group that could either consist of both men and women, or just more than one men.

Yes, except it is not just nouns and adjectives but also verbs that have masculine and feminine plurals, with the masculine plural being used where there is at least one man or masculine item. I didn't look up the passage Muslim PP referred to but it likely uses a masculine plural noun and verb.

There is also a dual in Arabic for referring to two people or things. There is a masculine dual and a feminine dual for nouns, adjectives and verbs, with the former used where a male and a female or a masculine and a feminine item are the subjects.

Really interesting. Is there a neuter case/declension?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that we've gone off topic, I have a question for Muslim poster, who wrote:

She had no idea about sura Ash Shurra and the verse that addressed men AND women on how to resolve (political) matters that required collective opinions. She could not read Arabic so she had no idea the language used in that verse was plural, addressing women too.

I don't see how the plural used shows definitively that both men and women were being addressed. In Arabic, the same plural is used when it is men only being addressed or men and women being addressed. I don't know what grounds one would use to say one or other was meant. All that we know is that women only were not being addressed as that is a different plural.

So it's like French and Spanish, if only in the sense that you use the masculine plural for a group that could either consist of both men and women, or just more than one men.

Yes, except it is not just nouns and adjectives but also verbs that have masculine and feminine plurals, with the masculine plural being used where there is at least one man or masculine item. I didn't look up the passage Muslim PP referred to but it likely uses a masculine plural noun and verb.

There is also a dual in Arabic for referring to two people or things. There is a masculine dual and a feminine dual for nouns, adjectives and verbs, with the former used where a male and a female or a masculine and a feminine item are the subjects.

Really interesting. Is there a neuter case/declension?

No neuter.

There are three cases: nominative, accusative, and genitive. These are conveyed through markings above the last letter of the word, except that in certain instances if the word is accusative an extra long "a" is added at the end of the word. Typically, the markings would not be shown in handwriting or newspapers, so case markings are not as helpful as one think they could be for the struggling reader.

Most native and educated speakers of Arabic would intuitively know the proper case endings. However, in translating medieval Arabic texts it is not always so obvious, particularly as Arabic has no punctuation; sentences are strung together by the insertion of "and" so a text is essentially one, long run on sentence. For technical texts sometimes the markings are used. For example, I can't imagine reading Wittengenstein in Arabic without case endings.

In the standard Quran used today all case and vowel markings are shown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that we've gone off topic, I have a question for Muslim poster, who wrote:

She had no idea about sura Ash Shurra and the verse that addressed men AND women on how to resolve (political) matters that required collective opinions. She could not read Arabic so she had no idea the language used in that verse was plural, addressing women too.

I don't see how the plural used shows definitively that both men and women were being addressed. In Arabic, the same plural is used when it is men only being addressed or men and women being addressed. I don't know what grounds one would use to say one or other was meant. All that we know is that women only were not being addressed as that is a different plural.

So it's like French and Spanish, if only in the sense that you use the masculine plural for a group that could either consist of both men and women, or just more than one men.

Yes, except it is not just nouns and adjectives but also verbs that have masculine and feminine plurals, with the masculine plural being used where there is at least one man or masculine item. I didn't look up the passage Muslim PP referred to but it likely uses a masculine plural noun and verb.

There is also a dual in Arabic for referring to two people or things. There is a masculine dual and a feminine dual for nouns, adjectives and verbs, with the former used where a male and a female or a masculine and a feminine item are the subjects.

Really interesting. Is there a neuter case/declension?

No neuter.

There are three cases: nominative, accusative, and genitive. These are conveyed through markings above the last letter of the word, except that in certain instances if the word is accusative an extra long "a" is added at the end of the word. Typically, the markings would not be shown in handwriting or newspapers, so case markings are not as helpful as one think they could be for the struggling reader.

Most native and educated speakers of Arabic would intuitively know the proper case endings. However, in translating medieval Arabic texts it is not always so obvious, particularly as Arabic has no punctuation; sentences are strung together by the insertion of "and" so a text is essentially one, long run on sentence. For technical texts sometimes the markings are used. For example, I can't imagine reading Wittengenstein in Arabic without case endings.

In the standard Quran used today all case and vowel markings are shown.

Thanks! DS is taking Arabic mainly because he likes languages. But he's in month 2 of Arabic, so there's no way he could have helped me with this.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the OP...
Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine for political purposes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This pretty much shows the insane level some Muslims will take their religion. If we were discussing this in person it would not surprise me if physical violence occurred.

Shame on you. Blatant islamophobia. Not sure how you can sleep at night with such baseless accusations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that we've gone off topic, I have a question for Muslim poster, who wrote:

She had no idea about sura Ash Shurra and the verse that addressed men AND women on how to resolve (political) matters that required collective opinions. She could not read Arabic so she had no idea the language used in that verse was plural, addressing women too.

I don't see how the plural used shows definitively that both men and women were being addressed. In Arabic, the same plural is used when it is men only being addressed or men and women being addressed. I don't know what grounds one would use to say one or other was meant. All that we know is that women only were not being addressed as that is a different plural.

So it's like French and Spanish, if only in the sense that you use the masculine plural for a group that could either consist of both men and women, or just more than one men.

But 42:38 does not refer only to men and we know that because 42:38 is not a standalone verse. It must be read with the verses above it and the verses below it. Allah is communicating with everyone because in the verses above it He begins by addressing all believers. All believers means all Muslims or all who submit their will to God, not just men who are believers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Now that we've gone off topic, I have a question for Muslim poster, who wrote:

She had no idea about sura Ash Shurra and the verse that addressed men AND women on how to resolve (political) matters that required collective opinions. She could not read Arabic so she had no idea the language used in that verse was plural, addressing women too.

I don't see how the plural used shows definitively that both men and women were being addressed. In Arabic, the same plural is used when it is men only being addressed or men and women being addressed. I don't know what grounds one would use to say one or other was meant. All that we know is that women only were not being addressed as that is a different plural.

So it's like French and Spanish, if only in the sense that you use the masculine plural for a group that could either consist of both men and women, or just more than one men.

Yes, except it is not just nouns and adjectives but also verbs that have masculine and feminine plurals, with the masculine plural being used where there is at least one man or masculine item. I didn't look up the passage Muslim PP referred to but it likely uses a masculine plural noun and verb.

There is also a dual in Arabic for referring to two people or things. There is a masculine dual and a feminine dual for nouns, adjectives and verbs, with the former used where a male and a female or a masculine and a feminine item are the subjects.

Really interesting. Is there a neuter case/declension?

No neuter.

There are three cases: nominative, accusative, and genitive. These are conveyed through markings above the last letter of the word, except that in certain instances if the word is accusative an extra long "a" is added at the end of the word. Typically, the markings would not be shown in handwriting or newspapers, so case markings are not as helpful as one think they could be for the struggling reader.

Most native and educated speakers of Arabic would intuitively know the proper case endings. However, in translating medieval Arabic texts it is not always so obvious, particularly as Arabic has no punctuation; sentences are strung together by the insertion of "and" so a text is essentially one, long run on sentence. For technical texts sometimes the markings are used. For example, I can't imagine reading Wittengenstein in Arabic without case endings.

In the standard Quran used today all case and vowel markings are shown.

Thanks! DS is taking Arabic mainly because he likes languages. But he's in month 2 of Arabic, so there's no way he could have helped me with this.

Good luck to DS. By the way, was writing too quickly and made a technical error above. The marking for the genitive case appears below (rather than above) the last letter of the word.

In many ways, Arabic is one of the most logical languages out there and properly spoken sounds beautiful--the Arabic word for barbarian means one who does not know poetry. There are cases, but they are no where near the difficulty of what one sees in Latin; if you have subject, direct object, and indirect object down cold the cases are pretty easy.

The difficulty in my view comes from the fact that written Arabic is quite different from spoken Arabic (of whatever dialect). So unlike Spanish and French, for example, where one gets huge re-enforcement of spoken language through reading and writing and vice versa, in Arabic the payoff can be quite small.

Learning both spoken and written Arabic is like learning two different, although very similar, languages at the same time. One can think of the difference as something akin to the difference between spoken Italian and Latin at the time of Dante (although there is no written language for colloquial Arabic).

I speak colloquial Arabic (badly) but I was formally taught Arabic purely in written form, much as Latin is often taught. One might recite texts but was not expected to converse in the language.

Not a problem yet for your DS, but as one progresses along the vocabulary can be quite overwhelming depending on how old the texts one reads. The golden age of Arabic literature was in the medieval centuries and the vocabulary changes considerably from century to century.

[Anonymous]

Here is the very first post I wrote about Islam on this thread:

10/24 10:45

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me, it just affirms my faith in Islam because Jesus' importance is undeniable but the Quran explicitly denounces his divinity.

And here is the very first reply I received:
For me, the importance of Jesus has nothing to do with his divinity or non-divinity. It has to do with his message of non-violence and loving your enemies. I know Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying "Muslims believe in Jesus too, just not that he's divine." For me, however, it's all about the message. I've read the Koran and the Koranic message of retribution and eye-for-eye (which Jesus got rid of) is not a Jesus I could follow.

So it's pretty clear here that I wrote a benign, honest post about affirmation of my faith and the very first response I got was an accusation that Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying what I just did.

Nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me, it just affirms my faith in Islam because Jesus' importance is undeniable but the Quran explicitly denounces his divinity.

For me, the importance of Jesus has nothing to do with his divinity or non-divinity. It has to do with his message of non-violence and loving your enemies. I know Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying "Muslims believe in Jesus too, just not that he's divine." For me, however, it's all about the message. I've read the Koran and the Koranic message of retribution and eye-for-eye (which Jesus got rid of) is not a Jesus I could follow.

I just said it reaffirms MY faith, but you managed to twist this around into proselytizing. Do I need to follow up every post about Jesus with a disclaimer? Or should Muslims just be prohibited from mentioning Jesus? What do you expect us to do?

And I said "Muslims like to mention Jesus...." I didn't say "you in particular like to mention Jesus...."

Im not the previous poster but, its because Muslims respect and revere Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of God’s messengers to mankind. Why would they not talk about him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the OP...
Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine for political purposes.

By what magic did Constantine produce the inexplicable shroud of Turin?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the OP...
Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine for political purposes.

By what magic did Constantine produce the inexplicable shroud of Turin?

Please detail for us your first-hand eyewitness encounter with this mystical/mythical "proof" that you invest such certainty in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the OP...
Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine for political purposes.

Are you the same poster who is crying Islamophobia everywhere? Ummmm....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the OP...
Christianity is a copycat religion created by Emperor Constantine for political purposes.

Are you the same poster who is crying Islamophobia everywhere? Ummmm....

No but don't let that stop you from making the presumption anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is the very first post I wrote about Islam on this thread:

10/24 10:45

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me, it just affirms my faith in Islam because Jesus' importance is undeniable but the Quran explicitly denounces his divinity.

And here is the very first reply I received:
For me, the importance of Jesus has nothing to do with his divinity or non-divinity. It has to do with his message of non-violence and loving your enemies. I know Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying "Muslims believe in Jesus too, just not that he's divine." For me, however, it's all about the message. I've read the Koran and the Koranic message of retribution and eye-for-eye (which Jesus got rid of) is not a Jesus I could follow.

So it's pretty clear here that I wrote a benign, honest post about affirmation of my faith and the very first response I got was an accusation that Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying what I just did.

Nice.

Honest to God. Literally.

You've been told, it's been pointed out MULTIPLE times, that you got ONE comment in response to your Jesus post. It was your post at 00:16 that drove people nuts, with YET ANOTHER of your dishonest recaps about the women's equality issue.

Grow up. Stop pretending you don't know that you caused the problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is the very first post I wrote about Islam on this thread:

10/24 10:45

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For me, it just affirms my faith in Islam because Jesus' importance is undeniable but the Quran explicitly denounces his divinity.

And here is the very first reply I received:
For me, the importance of Jesus has nothing to do with his divinity or non-divinity. It has to do with his message of non-violence and loving your enemies. I know Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying "Muslims believe in Jesus too, just not that he's divine." For me, however, it's all about the message. I've read the Koran and the Koranic message of retribution and eye-for-eye (which Jesus got rid of) is not a Jesus I could follow.

So it's pretty clear here that I wrote a benign, honest post about affirmation of my faith and the very first response I got was an accusation that Muslims are always trying to convert people by saying what I just did.

Nice.

Lots of the Quran is very unscientific. Science Channel hasn't yet done a show on this. But how do you feel about the Creation story, Adam and Eve, being presented in the Quran as the literal and irrefutable word of God?