The rigor of LACs

[Anonymous]

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

The PIs at LACs are more undergraduate focused for obvious reasons. Also, unlike R1 univ, they are more focused on undergrad education in general. At an R1 you obviously have more breadth of research but for an undergrad that generally is not what's important. More important to have access to professors who care about you.

A professor willing to work with you will put the time into doing so. You understand R1 profs don’t have to accept undergrads into their labs right? Having breadth of research is important because A) you don’t have to do an REU just to do the research you want and B) you should have some idea as to what your field is like if you are interested in grad school. I’m not sure if you’re just recalling your own personal poor experience with a professor or what, but these don’t really make sense in the context of a quality research institution compared to a good lac. It’s a bit obscene to act as if every Research university has cruel researchers who hate undergrads (but accept them into their labs) and give no support. I’ll also mention that if you’re interested in the humanities, it will be helpful to have access to institutes and research in your area. Many LAC humanities profs don’t really work with students; particularly if they’re writing books, they often prefer working alone and contacting peers for advice.

Having breadth of research is much more important for graduate students than undergrads the vast majority of whom have (understandably) less narrowly defined research interests. You also misunderstand - no one is suggesting that research univ have "cruel" researchers. The point is that at a school with only undergrads, these students are competing only with other undergrads and not graduate students. At a graduate level, of course R1s make complete sense. I don't know which LAC you went to for undergrad and how long that was but if you look at some of their poster sessions, the depth and breadth is quite impressive esp for undergrads. Your experience at your particular LAC is not representative of the opportunities avaiable to students today.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Very few LACs are anywhere near the rigor of top engineering universities. That's what happens when your school is mostly "soft" subjects.

Do you care to explain why when adjusted for size SLACs send a far higher percentage of their students to PhD programs than the schools which you obsessively adore?

The schools PP adores give their students the option to go into highly lucrative industry careers or grad school. With a LAC, there is pretty much no choice, so of course more go to grad school. That's not necessarily a success.

That is funny, wildly incorrect but funny.

Top SLACs place as well or better into highly lucrative careers as well or better than any top university major for major. Ironically many also place very well for CS and Swarthmore and Mudd engineering grads are highly sought after. The universities that they adore place a lot of engineers which skews their numbers.

nI can believe this for Mudd, but I'll need evidence for Swarthmore being a FAANG target

Is FAANG the benchmark now? The vast majority of engineering majors at a FAANG aren't from the school that you covet. I've posted many times here about FAANG engineers. The ones on my team were from MIT, CIT, Waterloo, and Toronto. But I also had SJSU, UCSC, CP SLO, NCstate, Missouri S&T, UN Reno, RIT. A Midd grad is VP Product for a Google group (not mine, mine is led by a Stanford grad), and I have a L8 (Director) peer from RIT. You just don't get it, these schools aren't "all that and a bag of chips" in our world.

If a FAANG was really your target I would go to SJSU and just try to crush it.

FAANG feeders tend to be schools that are very good at cs- Georgia tech, UT, Stanford, CMU, etc.

I was in a tech leadership role at two of the companies in that acronym and I now work at one of the Magnificent 7. You are partially correct, there are lot's of people from those schools and the FAANGs do look at those schools because of consistent talent quality. But they really don't care where you come from. There is no real advantage from those schools. A coder from a non selective who can pass the tests will get the exact same look as someone from CMU. In some ways they prefer the non-selective because it makes things look more inclusive.

U Wash is great for recruiting because of proximity
Same for UT
Same for SJSU, Stanford, UCB, UCSC

I went to a SUNY and now make 7 figures. FAANGs don't care

I can confirm this. My DC graduated from a CTCL school about 10 years ago and was hired directly out of college by a FAANG. DC did very well on the coding interview and in fact, had several offers from which to choose.

[Anonymous]

What's with all the LAC threads lately? They reek of insecurity.

[Anonymous]

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

The PIs at LACs are more undergraduate focused for obvious reasons. Also, unlike R1 univ, they are more focused on undergrad education in general. At an R1 you obviously have more breadth of research but for an undergrad that generally is not what's important. More important to have access to professors who care about you.

A professor willing to work with you will put the time into doing so. You understand R1 profs don’t have to accept undergrads into their labs right? Having breadth of research is important because A) you don’t have to do an REU just to do the research you want and B) you should have some idea as to what your field is like if you are interested in grad school. I’m not sure if you’re just recalling your own personal poor experience with a professor or what, but these don’t really make sense in the context of a quality research institution compared to a good lac. It’s a bit obscene to act as if every Research university has cruel researchers who hate undergrads (but accept them into their labs) and give no support. I’ll also mention that if you’re interested in the humanities, it will be helpful to have access to institutes and research in your area. Many LAC humanities profs don’t really work with students; particularly if they’re writing books, they often prefer working alone and contacting peers for advice.

Nice try but again incorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's with all the LAC threads lately? They reek of insecurity.

They do; but the insecurity is not on the part of the SLAC parents. Rather it is on those who continue to spew nonsense towards SLACs and it is quite entertaining watching people with life experience on both sides step in and set them straight. Its pretty obvious that those with experience on both sides of the argument are solidly in support of SLACs.

[Anonymous]

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

Mentoring undergrads is a form of service. Why would a professor who enjoys the low service and teaching requirements of the R1 voluntarily choose to do extra of both in the form of mentoring undergrad research?

[Anonymous]

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

The PIs at LACs are more undergraduate focused for obvious reasons. Also, unlike R1 univ, they are more focused on undergrad education in general. At an R1 you obviously have more breadth of research but for an undergrad that generally is not what's important. More important to have access to professors who care about you.

A professor willing to work with you will put the time into doing so. You understand R1 profs don’t have to accept undergrads into their labs right? Having breadth of research is important because A) you don’t have to do an REU just to do the research you want and B) you should have some idea as to what your field is like if you are interested in grad school. I’m not sure if you’re just recalling your own personal poor experience with a professor or what, but these don’t really make sense in the context of a quality research institution compared to a good lac. It’s a bit obscene to act as if every Research university has cruel researchers who hate undergrads (but accept them into their labs) and give no support. I’ll also mention that if you’re interested in the humanities, it will be helpful to have access to institutes and research in your area. Many LAC humanities profs don’t really work with students; particularly if they’re writing books, they often prefer working alone and contacting peers for advice.

Having breadth of research is much more important for graduate students than undergrads the vast majority of whom have (understandably) less narrowly defined research interests.

That's exactly why a breadth of research experience can be helpful in helping an undergrad learn which niches they find more or less interesting.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think that most accredited colleges, LAC or otherwise, offer students more educational opportunities than they can take advantage of. I think that the quality of education any student at any college receives is determined more by the extent to which they apply themselves and take advantage of those opportunities than by the name of the institution awarding their diploma. Therefore, I think it is better to find the best college for a student, that will best motivate and facilitate that particular student, than to assume that some published ranking of “best” colleges will provide that particular student with the best outcome.

What a ridiculous statement. You're going to get a better education at Stanford or MIT than Williams.

A better undergraduate education? Probably not. What would actually make you believe that you would get a better education at either school? The faculty aren't superior for undergraduate teaching than at a top SLAC. The resources aren't superior to a top SLAC. The student bodies are basically identical to those at a top SLAC. The class sizes are smaller at a top SLAC. The access to professors is actually better at a top SLAC. The access to research opportunities that are actually appropriate to level of experience are typically higher at a top SLAC. Overall a top SLAC provides a superior educational environment for student outside of those looking to study CS or engineering.

The student body - particularly the top 10% in any given major - are definitely not the same. They're drawn from a pool of the top couple dozen or so high school students in their respective fields - the ones who've already done most of the undergrad level curriculum (STEM) or are routinely engaging with primary sources, historiography, analysis, etc (humanities) and doing real, meaningful research (both).

Access to professors is just fine at Stanford and MIT - no top students are struggling to get research, and students have a greater range of areas to research within.

And since you left the door open for math, see the above comment. Other sciences are mostly the same.

Do you mean the Reddit link? It doesn't say what you think it says. Actually part way down the thread there was a solid argument against your assertion. You obviously didn't go to one of those schools which you so adore. I did; though it was for grad school.

Which assertion, and which argument?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think that most accredited colleges, LAC or otherwise, offer students more educational opportunities than they can take advantage of. I think that the quality of education any student at any college receives is determined more by the extent to which they apply themselves and take advantage of those opportunities than by the name of the institution awarding their diploma. Therefore, I think it is better to find the best college for a student, that will best motivate and facilitate that particular student, than to assume that some published ranking of “best” colleges will provide that particular student with the best outcome.

What a ridiculous statement. You're going to get a better education at Stanford or MIT than Williams.

A better undergraduate education? Probably not. What would actually make you believe that you would get a better education at either school? The faculty aren't superior for undergraduate teaching than at a top SLAC. The resources aren't superior to a top SLAC. The student bodies are basically identical to those at a top SLAC. The class sizes are smaller at a top SLAC. The access to professors is actually better at a top SLAC. The access to research opportunities that are actually appropriate to level of experience are typically higher at a top SLAC. Overall a top SLAC provides a superior educational environment for student outside of those looking to study CS or engineering.

The student body - particularly the top 10% in any given major - are definitely not the same. They're drawn from a pool of the top couple dozen or so high school students in their respective fields - the ones who've already done most of the undergrad level curriculum (STEM) or are routinely engaging with primary sources, historiography, analysis, etc (humanities) and doing real, meaningful research (both).

Access to professors is just fine at Stanford and MIT - no top students are struggling to get research, and students have a greater range of areas to research within.

And since you left the door open for math, see the above comment. Other sciences are mostly the same.

Grades are basically the same, rigor is basically the same, test scores are basically the same, pulled from the same top schools in the country and yet you persist in arguing that they kids at top R1s are some how "different" and "special". Your argument is the definition of delusion; refusing to accept what is staring you right in the face because you wish it were something other than what it is.

Please find me a SLAC with similar freshman math rigor to UChicago (math 20700), Harvard (math 55), Princeton (MAT 216), etc.

Shouldn't be hard since you claim the rigor is basically the same. Let's see you actually provide evidence for your baseless assertions.

I know UMTYMP (University of Minnesota Talented Youth Mathematics Program) students who, while in high school, study "proof-based" Linear Algebra and Multivariable (Vector-based) Calculus in their 4th and 5th year of the program. Many of such students graduate from UMTYMP while in 10th grade. Those kids go on to study math and STEM at top universities and STEM colleges like MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, CMU, to name a few.

The courses like math 20700, math 55, MAT 216 that you have cited are easy for these kids. There are students in this country who are capable of studying complicated math in high school. So it doesn't matter which college offers the hardest math courses; we can find hard math courses at many top universities and SLACs. If a student is capable of getting admission to the top colleges, then they are capable enough to study any hard course.

That's a whole lot of nothing. If it really is the case that "we" (?) can find (imilarly) hard math freshman courses at many SLACs, then you should have no trouble doing so. If you can't, it's pretty strong evidence for these universities having the stronger rigor.

If you apparently know UMTYMP students at these universities and are close enough to know how easy their classes are, why don't you ask them to compare the freshman offerings of Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Reed with the ones I mentioned? Why don't most of them choose SLACs over CMU, Caltech, MIT?

And yes, rigor definitely matters, especially in math for a student intending on grad school. If it didn't, these classes wouldn't exist in the first place. Either way, it's odd how you're backpedaling from "the rigor is basically the same" to "the rigor doesn't matter anyway", especially considering the topic of the thread.

[Anonymous]

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

The PIs at LACs are more undergraduate focused for obvious reasons. Also, unlike R1 univ, they are more focused on undergrad education in general. At an R1 you obviously have more breadth of research but for an undergrad that generally is not what's important. More important to have access to professors who care about you.

A professor willing to work with you will put the time into doing so. You understand R1 profs don’t have to accept undergrads into their labs right? Having breadth of research is important because A) you don’t have to do an REU just to do the research you want and B) you should have some idea as to what your field is like if you are interested in grad school. I’m not sure if you’re just recalling your own personal poor experience with a professor or what, but these don’t really make sense in the context of a quality research institution compared to a good lac. It’s a bit obscene to act as if every Research university has cruel researchers who hate undergrads (but accept them into their labs) and give no support. I’ll also mention that if you’re interested in the humanities, it will be helpful to have access to institutes and research in your area. Many LAC humanities profs don’t really work with students; particularly if they’re writing books, they often prefer working alone and contacting peers for advice.

Nice try but again incorrect.

What a useless comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

Mentoring undergrads is a form of service. Why would a professor who enjoys the low service and teaching requirements of the R1 voluntarily choose to do extra of both in the form of mentoring undergrad research?

Because they do it every year for more undergrads than most lac professors do? It’s not exactly a rarity for an r1 lab to have undergraduate students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think that most accredited colleges, LAC or otherwise, offer students more educational opportunities than they can take advantage of. I think that the quality of education any student at any college receives is determined more by the extent to which they apply themselves and take advantage of those opportunities than by the name of the institution awarding their diploma. Therefore, I think it is better to find the best college for a student, that will best motivate and facilitate that particular student, than to assume that some published ranking of “best” colleges will provide that particular student with the best outcome.

What a ridiculous statement. You're going to get a better education at Stanford or MIT than Williams.

A better undergraduate education? Probably not. What would actually make you believe that you would get a better education at either school? The faculty aren't superior for undergraduate teaching than at a top SLAC. The resources aren't superior to a top SLAC. The student bodies are basically identical to those at a top SLAC. The class sizes are smaller at a top SLAC. The access to professors is actually better at a top SLAC. The access to research opportunities that are actually appropriate to level of experience are typically higher at a top SLAC. Overall a top SLAC provides a superior educational environment for student outside of those looking to study CS or engineering.

The student body - particularly the top 10% in any given major - are definitely not the same. They're drawn from a pool of the top couple dozen or so high school students in their respective fields - the ones who've already done most of the undergrad level curriculum (STEM) or are routinely engaging with primary sources, historiography, analysis, etc (humanities) and doing real, meaningful research (both).

Access to professors is just fine at Stanford and MIT - no top students are struggling to get research, and students have a greater range of areas to research within.

And since you left the door open for math, see the above comment. Other sciences are mostly the same.

Grades are basically the same, rigor is basically the same, test scores are basically the same, pulled from the same top schools in the country and yet you persist in arguing that they kids at top R1s are some how "different" and "special". Your argument is the definition of delusion; refusing to accept what is staring you right in the face because you wish it were something other than what it is.

Please find me a SLAC with similar freshman math rigor to UChicago (math 20700), Harvard (math 55), Princeton (MAT 216), etc.

Shouldn't be hard since you claim the rigor is basically the same. Let's see you actually provide evidence for your baseless assertions.

I know UMTYMP (University of Minnesota Talented Youth Mathematics Program) students who, while in high school, study "proof-based" Linear Algebra and Multivariable (Vector-based) Calculus in their 4th and 5th year of the program. Many of such students graduate from UMTYMP while in 10th grade. Those kids go on to study math and STEM at top universities and STEM colleges like MIT, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, CMU, to name a few.

The courses like math 20700, math 55, MAT 216 that you have cited are easy for these kids. There are students in this country who are capable of studying complicated math in high school. So it doesn't matter which college offers the hardest math courses; we can find hard math courses at many top universities and SLACs. If a student is capable of getting admission to the top colleges, then they are capable enough to study any hard course.

That's a whole lot of nothing. If it really is the case that "we" (?) can find (imilarly) hard math freshman courses at many SLACs, then you should have no trouble doing so. If you can't, it's pretty strong evidence for these universities having the stronger rigor.

If you apparently know UMTYMP students at these universities and are close enough to know how easy their classes are, why don't you ask them to compare the freshman offerings of Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Reed with the ones I mentioned? Why don't most of them choose SLACs over CMU, Caltech, MIT?

And yes, rigor definitely matters, especially in math for a student intending on grad school. If it didn't, these classes wouldn't exist in the first place. Either way, it's odd how you're backpedaling from "the rigor is basically the same" to "the rigor doesn't matter anyway", especially considering the topic of the thread.

Lacs have no problem getting students into graduate programs, so I’d really get over this “concern.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's with all the LAC threads lately? They reek of insecurity.

Get off them then and stop reading about “insecure” parents’ thoughts.

[Anonymous]

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When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

The PIs at LACs are more undergraduate focused for obvious reasons. Also, unlike R1 univ, they are more focused on undergrad education in general. At an R1 you obviously have more breadth of research but for an undergrad that generally is not what's important. More important to have access to professors who care about you.

A professor willing to work with you will put the time into doing so. You understand R1 profs don’t have to accept undergrads into their labs right? Having breadth of research is important because A) you don’t have to do an REU just to do the research you want and B) you should have some idea as to what your field is like if you are interested in grad school. I’m not sure if you’re just recalling your own personal poor experience with a professor or what, but these don’t really make sense in the context of a quality research institution compared to a good lac. It’s a bit obscene to act as if every Research university has cruel researchers who hate undergrads (but accept them into their labs) and give no support. I’ll also mention that if you’re interested in the humanities, it will be helpful to have access to institutes and research in your area. Many LAC humanities profs don’t really work with students; particularly if they’re writing books, they often prefer working alone and contacting peers for advice.

Having breadth of research is much more important for graduate students than undergrads the vast majority of whom have (understandably) less narrowly defined research interests.

That's exactly why a breadth of research experience can be helpful in helping an undergrad learn which niches they find more or less interesting.

The motivation for an undergrad to do research is very different from a grad student or post doc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
When did you last attend an HYPSM, the classes these days are TINY. You were just a generation behind. They also can hire the best teaching faculty because of the prestige.

They hire them, then fire them rather than giving them tenure. Not the best way to motivate them to teach.

Do you mean non-tenure track faculty? That is how all institutions work. You don’t accept a contract that says you will be at an institution for a short period if you want to be there long term.

No, I mean assistant professors on the tenure track:"Tenure at Harvard is very difficult to get, particularly promotion from within. From job offer to tenure offer, scholarship and teaching are intensely scrutinized. For young scholars hired into the tenure track and brought up from within, evaluation occurs in Harvard’s classrooms and among its academic circles. Of the 20 or 30 assistant professors who are hired into that track across the University each year, many will not make it through a full seven years to tenure review.

At the same time as junior faculty are moving up within the University, more senior scholars will be recruited from the outside. Though reputations and their own tenure positions have been earned elsewhere, ultimately these “stars from afar,” as Singer calls them, will compete with those closer to home for the same small number of positions."

Plus they're focusing more on research than teaching:

"Ideally, research and teaching go hand-in-hand—the great professor contributes to the scope of knowledge while at the same time dispensing it. But without a means to measure—and reward— teaching, students are often left with senior professors who conduct their classes with unconcealed distaste, rehashing old overheads compiled a generation ago, stifling the bothersome questions at office hours, and begrudging every minute stolen from the lab. There are, of course, the occasional geniuses whose level of research covers all defects and makes them essential hires even if their lectures are grunted and monotone. But geniuses pare rare even among Harvard’s professoriat. The lay-professors ought to be skilled at teaching and research, but the Harvard’s current tenuring process hardly allows it. “I’m told often that teaching really matters but I don’t see a lot of evidence that being an exceptional teacher will result in a real reward here,” says Cox."

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/11/scrutiny-tenure-harvard/

Liberal arts college professors still need to do ample research to advance to tenure, especially at WASP.

Yes, and guess who actively participates with them in their research? Undergrads! This was the case with our Kid who got several scientific papers published from her undergrad SLAC research

The same is true for universities though. It’s so strange how you can’t see the intense biases you’re grasping onto.

Funny, I'm thinking the same thing about YOU. The difference is that at a SLAC you don't need to contend with the grad students who often get the most attention at the university labs.

Have you been a grad student or worked on a research team? Most grad students catch a meeting with their research mentor once a month or maybe a few times a month if they have a very organized professor. Undergraduates need a lot of attention, because they don’t know what they’re doing and don’t have much technical background.

Exactly my point, that's why its better to do undergraduate research at a SLAC where you'd get more attention than a large univ. And yes, I'm intimately familiar with medical research where we have (at least) weekly meetings

No I'm not following. It's up to a professor to have the time to conduct various meetings with undergrads. A professor with funding, emphasis on research, and less time on service and teaching will be a better research mentor. I went to an LAC. I loved the experience, but the research opportunities and experiences are much better for undergrads at my current public R1 institution than I could've imagined at my LAC.

The PIs at LACs are more undergraduate focused for obvious reasons. Also, unlike R1 univ, they are more focused on undergrad education in general. At an R1 you obviously have more breadth of research but for an undergrad that generally is not what's important. More important to have access to professors who care about you.

A professor willing to work with you will put the time into doing so. You understand R1 profs don’t have to accept undergrads into their labs right? Having breadth of research is important because A) you don’t have to do an REU just to do the research you want and B) you should have some idea as to what your field is like if you are interested in grad school. I’m not sure if you’re just recalling your own personal poor experience with a professor or what, but these don’t really make sense in the context of a quality research institution compared to a good lac. It’s a bit obscene to act as if every Research university has cruel researchers who hate undergrads (but accept them into their labs) and give no support. I’ll also mention that if you’re interested in the humanities, it will be helpful to have access to institutes and research in your area. Many LAC humanities profs don’t really work with students; particularly if they’re writing books, they often prefer working alone and contacting peers for advice.

Having breadth of research is much more important for graduate students than undergrads the vast majority of whom have (understandably) less narrowly defined research interests.

That's exactly why a breadth of research experience can be helpful in helping an undergrad learn which niches they find more or less interesting.

The motivation for an undergrad to do research is very different from a grad student or post doc.

In what way? The distance between an undergrad and grad student is a few years.