HB Woodlawn - I know nothing. Help!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

there are plenty of kids at HB who would be in the rich, popular clique at any high school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

I wouldn’t say that HB has better facilities. It does have the unique outdoor terraces which are heavily used and looks impressive architecturally. W-L has a new addition in a similarly impressive looking building (the one with the planetarium). The new W-L has very attractive common spaces filled with various types of furniture, and attractive classrooms and labs filled withnatural light from the large windows. The new Dorothy Hamm Middle School has a large, beautiful new library, and various new labs for fabrication and engineering. The outdoor common spaces there were beautifully landscaped. Etc. APS builds nice facilities overall.

HB is not better resourced. As others have noted, course and extracurricular options can be more limiting at HB due to its small size, but the upside is small classes and very small grade cohorts, smaller than many top private and independent schools.

Teachers at HB are very committed, in part due to the unique nature of the school, but I know plenty of committed teachers at the high schools, such as in the IB Programme.

The high test scores at HB are simply a reflection of the student body, which is generally upper income for the most part.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My DC was just offered a spot at HB Woodlawn for 9th. I know very little about the school and would love some info bc there is not much online. DC is very young for his grade (September day and will start HS at 13). We have discussed having him repeat 8th bc he isn’t ready for HS. He does have some executive function and attention issues but is bright and very bored in middle school. Our home school Yorktown HS is so big we are afraid he will get eaten alive or lost in the shuffle bc he’s young, immature and small too.

Can anyone explain what exactly HB is, whether it’s a good alternative school option for a kid with DC’s profile?

Genuine question: Why on EARTH would you enter the lottery if you didn't know anything about the school?

We entered because we've heard good things, but didn't spend much time investigating the school given our 3% chance of getting a spot. We figured we could do our research and make a choice if it becomes a real option for us. No need to become attached or waste time doing research given the miniscule chances that it's even an option for us. Totally rational.

This mentality right here is what's wrong with the program and the lottery system. It's driven by scarcity and FOMO and "winning" a spot. Not by people who are genuinely interested in the philosophy behind the program.

Honestly, we should have most of our schools run this way -- if you take the radical idea of treating young adults like young adults they'll behave accordingly and apply it to our education system writ large, a lot of problems would be solved. Our current model where we basically warehouse teens is horrible.

Public schools have always been “containers” for large groups of kids in this country, since at least the late 1800s. (Research by leading academics actually support individual schools no larger than 100 students for optimal learning; but that does not factor in sports, electives, cost, etc. It’s more of a European model.) I give APS credit for designing inspiring places for learning in the new and renovated buildings, for creating unique smaller programs open to all like the Career Center, and small option programs like Arlington Tech and HB. And the large high schools have a plethora of extra curriculars, sports, and electives for students with diverse interests.

The U.S. education current model is not perfect, but Arlington’s approach is not bad.

And if threads like this show us anything, it's that APS needs more of these option programs. The demand is definitely there.

Seriously? This is the problem. EVERYONE WANTS TO BE 1 out of 100 KIDS IN A CLASS. I’m paying through the nose for it in private (among other benefits). But the idea that we should provide more options—rather than reducing the gigantic high schools—is the hubris of the whole HB model. Options for everyone who wants it—totally unrealistic—as opposed to a better situation for everyone—actually realistic. That building for that tiny number of students is the definition of APS’ problems.

Have you ever been in “that building?” I had kids at both HB and YHS, and have been in W-L and Wakefield plenty of times. Other than the kind of funky exterior, “that building” is just a bunch of classrooms, a tiny gym, a tiny cafeteria area that’s not even a separate space, a decent size auditorium and a basement black box. Unfinished concrete floors. There is no space that fits the entire high school at once. No fields, no parking, no pool, no stands in the gym. It’s nothing luxurious or fancy. The balcony areas are so hot and loud from the urban noise they hardly get used It’s got big windows to be eco. They the kids paint on the walls so I guess that’s different. Complaints about class size I get, but the building is really just a basic school, with a fan shape.

I think folks annoyed at “that building” are annoyed — rightfully — that our school system SPENT $100 MILLION on it. That is One Hundred Million Dollars. That is insane.

And some people loudly complained when APS spent 100 million on a 400,000 square foot W-L HS almost 25 years ago, then the most expensive high school in Virginia history. APS doesn’t build boring boxes with small windows. They tend to invest more, build swimming pools, common areas, green roofs, large windows, etc.

W&L has 2,700 kids or 675/grade
HB has 700 kids or 100/grade

It was the fact that they decided to make the massive investment for the few at the expense of the many. Squeaky wheel.

Good grief. Learn some history. They pleaded to keep their grotty old building.

Right. HB will never do anything right as far as the haters are concerned. They were not allowed to stay in their dingy old building but then it's also a problem that they got a new building across town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting back to OP's question, I adore HB and my kid has had a wonderful experience. Still, there are real drawbacks - as compared to the regular high schools - that I was not fully aware of back when we took the slot.

HB has fewer AP classes. And when an AP is offered, it's often taught together with the regular class. So the teacher has to teach the AP and the non-AP curriculum in the same class.

HB offers fewer classes in general.

There are no intensified classes unless you're on the advanced math track. So it's AP or regular.

Extracurricular activities are pretty limited. Theater and ultimate frisbee are very active. Outside of that, not so much.

When my kid was there, they alternated between AP Bio and AP Environmental Science I think, so you had to know which year it would be offered. I don't know if that's still the case. In 7 years, my kid never got taken to an APS swimming pool for PE. On the plus side, she got to take foreign language classes with high schoolers while in MS (bilingual family).

Also the APs are offered at limited times, so you can't take them all - like you may not be able to take AP Physics and AP Chem because they are offered at the same time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

PP here - no, as I said before, HB actually has less resources - fewer class offerings, fewer extracurriculars.

As to lower class sizes - probably slightly lower at HB because HB uses its allotment for counselors for teachers and elects to have no counselors. So that is a tradeoff. Some of the class sizes that look tiny on paper actually are not. An AP class may look small on paper, but it's combined with a non AP class so it's really not. I don't see that as an upside.

I can tell you that I know plenty of kids in the group you describe who transferred out of HB back to their home school because they wanted a more traditional social experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

PP here - no, as I said before, HB actually has less resources - fewer class offerings, fewer extracurriculars.

As to lower class sizes - probably slightly lower at HB because HB uses its allotment for counselors for teachers and elects to have no counselors. So that is a tradeoff. Some of the class sizes that look tiny on paper actually are not. An AP class may look small on paper, but it's combined with a non AP class so it's really not. I don't see that as an upside.

I can tell you that I know plenty of kids in the group you describe who transferred out of HB back to their home school because they wanted a more traditional social experience.

This is not the school for your child if you think in these terms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC was just offered a spot at HB Woodlawn for 9th. I know very little about the school and would love some info bc there is not much online. DC is very young for his grade (September day and will start HS at 13). We have discussed having him repeat 8th bc he isn’t ready for HS. He does have some executive function and attention issues but is bright and very bored in middle school. Our home school Yorktown HS is so big we are afraid he will get eaten alive or lost in the shuffle bc he’s young, immature and small too.

Can anyone explain what exactly HB is, whether it’s a good alternative school option for a kid with DC’s profile?

Genuine question: Why on EARTH would you enter the lottery if you didn't know anything about the school?

We entered because we've heard good things, but didn't spend much time investigating the school given our 3% chance of getting a spot. We figured we could do our research and make a choice if it becomes a real option for us. No need to become attached or waste time doing research given the miniscule chances that it's even an option for us. Totally rational.

This mentality right here is what's wrong with the program and the lottery system. It's driven by scarcity and FOMO and "winning" a spot. Not by people who are genuinely interested in the philosophy behind the program.

Honestly, we should have most of our schools run this way -- if you take the radical idea of treating young adults like young adults they'll behave accordingly and apply it to our education system writ large, a lot of problems would be solved. Our current model where we basically warehouse teens is horrible.

Public schools have always been “containers” for large groups of kids in this country, since at least the late 1800s. (Research by leading academics actually support individual schools no larger than 100 students for optimal learning; but that does not factor in sports, electives, cost, etc. It’s more of a European model.) I give APS credit for designing inspiring places for learning in the new and renovated buildings, for creating unique smaller programs open to all like the Career Center, and small option programs like Arlington Tech and HB. And the large high schools have a plethora of extra curriculars, sports, and electives for students with diverse interests.

The U.S. education current model is not perfect, but Arlington’s approach is not bad.

And if threads like this show us anything, it's that APS needs more of these option programs. The demand is definitely there.

Seriously? This is the problem. EVERYONE WANTS TO BE 1 out of 100 KIDS IN A CLASS. I’m paying through the nose for it in private (among other benefits). But the idea that we should provide more options—rather than reducing the gigantic high schools—is the hubris of the whole HB model. Options for everyone who wants it—totally unrealistic—as opposed to a better situation for everyone—actually realistic. That building for that tiny number of students is the definition of APS’ problems.

Have you ever been in “that building?” I had kids at both HB and YHS, and have been in W-L and Wakefield plenty of times. Other than the kind of funky exterior, “that building” is just a bunch of classrooms, a tiny gym, a tiny cafeteria area that’s not even a separate space, a decent size auditorium and a basement black box. Unfinished concrete floors. There is no space that fits the entire high school at once. No fields, no parking, no pool, no stands in the gym. It’s nothing luxurious or fancy. The balcony areas are so hot and loud from the urban noise they hardly get used It’s got big windows to be eco. They the kids paint on the walls so I guess that’s different. Complaints about class size I get, but the building is really just a basic school, with a fan shape.

I think folks annoyed at “that building” are annoyed — rightfully — that our school system SPENT $100 MILLION on it. That is One Hundred Million Dollars. That is insane.

And some people loudly complained when APS spent 100 million on a 400,000 square foot W-L HS almost 25 years ago, then the most expensive high school in Virginia history. APS doesn’t build boring boxes with small windows. They tend to invest more, build swimming pools, common areas, green roofs, large windows, etc.

W&L has 2,700 kids or 675/grade
HB has 700 kids or 100/grade

It was the fact that they decided to make the massive investment for the few at the expense of the many. Squeaky wheel.

Good grief. Learn some history. They pleaded to keep their grotty old building.

Right. HB will never do anything right as far as the haters are concerned. They were not allowed to stay in their dingy old building but then it's also a problem that they got a new building across town.

I don't think anyone on this thread hates HB, and at least 2 critics said they would even love to send their kids there. I think people question the allocation of resources by the powers that be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

So your kid is "normal" and the HB kids are "freaks and geeks" or "ultra-woke"?!

HB is not for you. Please just keep your kid at his home school where he can have his "normal" experience with his bro's. Let "those kids" - your words - at HB live in peace without the toxicity your son would bring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

PP here - no, as I said before, HB actually has less resources - fewer class offerings, fewer extracurriculars.

As to lower class sizes - probably slightly lower at HB because HB uses its allotment for counselors for teachers and elects to have no counselors. So that is a tradeoff. Some of the class sizes that look tiny on paper actually are not. An AP class may look small on paper, but it's combined with a non AP class so it's really not. I don't see that as an upside.

I can tell you that I know plenty of kids in the group you describe who transferred out of HB back to their home school because they wanted a more traditional social experience.

The biggest reason class sizes are smaller is that H-B teachers agree to take on six classes instead of five. It’s less planning time, but they opt in. The administrators also teach a class, the only place in APS where I know this happens. The lack of guidance counselors is also a factor. Staff allocation formulas in APS are the same across option and comprehensive neighborhood schools. H-B uses its staffing differently.

Imagine, all APS schools could be more connected to their students’ needs and interests if all admin had some classroom responsibilities.

Option schools like ATS, Tech, and HBW do take up a bit more funding per pupil to enable district-wide transportation. That’s why the buses for those programs only serve a few stops. The transportation challenges are a real downside of attendance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

PP here - no, as I said before, HB actually has less resources - fewer class offerings, fewer extracurriculars.

As to lower class sizes - probably slightly lower at HB because HB uses its allotment for counselors for teachers and elects to have no counselors. So that is a tradeoff. Some of the class sizes that look tiny on paper actually are not. An AP class may look small on paper, but it's combined with a non AP class so it's really not. I don't see that as an upside.

I can tell you that I know plenty of kids in the group you describe who transferred out of HB back to their home school because they wanted a more traditional social experience.

The biggest reason class sizes are smaller is that H-B teachers agree to take on six classes instead of five. It’s less planning time, but they opt in. The administrators also teach a class, the only place in APS where I know this happens. The lack of guidance counselors is also a factor. Staff allocation formulas in APS are the same across option and comprehensive neighborhood schools. H-B uses its staffing differently.

Imagine, all APS schools could be more connected to their students’ needs and interests if all admin had some classroom responsibilities.

Option schools like ATS, Tech, and HBW do take up a bit more funding per pupil to enable district-wide transportation. That’s why the buses for those programs only serve a few stops. The transportation challenges are a real downside of attendance.

Agree that there are marginal costs associated with running separate routes for option schools but, like all the costs associated with those schools, the transportation costs would not completely go away if we got rid of option schools. My kid, like most kids, would take a bus to his high school either way. And the other high schools have a lot of other expenses to cover amenities for their students that H-B does not have like sports, the pools, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

So your kid is "normal" and the HB kids are "freaks and geeks" or "ultra-woke"?!

HB is not for you. Please just keep your kid at his home school where he can have his "normal" experience with his bro's. Let "those kids" - your words - at HB live in peace without the toxicity your son would bring.

Insecure much?

It was a perfectly rational question and one commonly asked about schools known for being quirky, academic, not focusing on sports, etc. People (rightly) ask the same thing about U Chicago or Kenyon.

Re-read your post and think again about who’s loaded up with “toxicity”. Or to make it more plain for you: you’re a bitter, jaded loser spewing venom for no reason. Sorry the cool kids were mean to you.

[Anonymous]

HBW's building cost $100 million and added 775 seats.

Dorothy Hamm's addition, to turn it into a neighborhood school, cost $40 million and added 225 seats (taking the building capacity from 775 seats to 1000).

Dorothy Hamm's construction was more expensive per seat added. And enrollment at DHMS is around 900 as of December, so we're not even using that capacity since some Discovery families who could walk to Dorothy Hamm are still somehow zoned for Williamsburg, and Woodbury Park kids at 10th st N and Barton are bussed to Jefferson.

Agree that $100 million is too much for a building. But each construction project that was happening at the exact same time, and since, has cost more per student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HBW's building cost $100 million and added 775 seats.

Dorothy Hamm's addition, to turn it into a neighborhood school, cost $40 million and added 225 seats (taking the building capacity from 775 seats to 1000).

Dorothy Hamm's construction was more expensive per seat added. And enrollment at DHMS is around 900 as of December, so we're not even using that capacity since some Discovery families who could walk to Dorothy Hamm are still somehow zoned for Williamsburg, and Woodbury Park kids at 10th st N and Barton are bussed to Jefferson.

Agree that $100 million is too much for a building. But each construction project that was happening at the exact same time, and since, has cost more per student.

Moving Woodbury park from Williamsburg/Yorktown to TJ/Yorktown was always a strange boundary move that isolates those kids. I wouldn’t be surprised if that finally gets worked out. APS has been slowly but imperfectly dismantling what used to be the diversity “island” in Rosslyn, the former WL neighborhoods bussed to Yorktown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:HBW's building cost $100 million and added 775 seats.

Dorothy Hamm's addition, to turn it into a neighborhood school, cost $40 million and added 225 seats (taking the building capacity from 775 seats to 1000).

Dorothy Hamm's construction was more expensive per seat added. And enrollment at DHMS is around 900 as of December, so we're not even using that capacity since some Discovery families who could walk to Dorothy Hamm are still somehow zoned for Williamsburg, and Woodbury Park kids at 10th st N and Barton are bussed to Jefferson.

Agree that $100 million is too much for a building. But each construction project that was happening at the exact same time, and since, has cost more per student.

What about building Discovery--less than 10 years ago--in a neighborhood so desperate for "capacity" that they are now talking about closing a different elementary school less than a mile away. Meanwhile the roof was caving in at Abingdon and they had 10 trailers covering the entire outdoor space at Patrick Henry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are trying to make the same decision.

Clearly HB has more resources and better facilities. Smaller class sizes. Better test scores.

Our impression is that it also gets, on balance, the more engaged and committed teachers—all of whom are dealing with fewer students and are more supported than at Y or WL.

But what about HB for a kid who isn’t all that “quirky”, doesn’t have an elaborate menu of pronouns, and is just a good student, highly social? It’s difficult to tell what % of the student population is fairly normal v those that are more in the (maybe stereotypical) “freaks and geeks” or ultra-woke mold that HB seems to cater to? (FTR it’s great those kids have a place they can thrive, and no issue with DC being in that kind of environment… just unclear whether *everyone* is like that or there’s more of a mix than is readily apparent.)

So your kid is "normal" and the HB kids are "freaks and geeks" or "ultra-woke"?!

HB is not for you. Please just keep your kid at his home school where he can have his "normal" experience with his bro's. Let "those kids" - your words - at HB live in peace without the toxicity your son would bring.

Insecure much?

It was a perfectly rational question and one commonly asked about schools known for being quirky, academic, not focusing on sports, etc. People (rightly) ask the same thing about U Chicago or Kenyon.

Re-read your post and think again about who’s loaded up with “toxicity”. Or to make it more plain for you: you’re a bitter, jaded loser spewing venom for no reason. Sorry the cool kids were mean to you.

Wow, please don’t bring this type of toxicity to HB, which is known for its kind and inclusive environment. And go get some anger counseling.