algebra 1 - which year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if a 5th grader can handle Algebra I, as sixth graders they will struggle with Geometry (proofs, less so the math), and it gets progressively harder from there. On that track, all the 10th graders will be taking AP Calc BC, Multivariable in 11th, and then what?

I doubt there is a school system on earth where it is common for kids to take calculus in 10th grade, and higher level math thereafter.

Define common. There is one middle school that has 40-50 8th graders taking algebra 2 with trig, and thus on a path to calculus in 10th grade. In Fairfax they could maybe take calculus in 9th if they are taking algebra 1 in 6th grade. There is no requirement of calc AB then Calc BC.

Actual numbers for Fairfax were posted here.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:5th grade is ideal if child has proper math education prior to then. But the will require parent participation to accomplish.

Lol

Why by 5th grade the kid has solid abstract thinking skills and can easily work to manipulate equations and solve for x. Math is really just a different language and we all know the earlier you start with a language the easier it is.

It is why the rest of the world speaks English and are way ahead of American students in math.

Laugh if you want but it the reality of the situation, just look at where the US ranks worldwide in math.

That's a generalization which is very optimistic. Are you sure you know what your talking about?

And kids doing well in algebra in 7th don't have to worry about the rest of the world. They'll be fine.

Yes, most people develop abstract thinking skills at 8 or 9 years of age.

No. Kids doing Algebra 1 in 7th grade are behind the rest of the world.

As other posters have touched on, the US concept of math branch based education of doing Algebra 1 - Geometry - Algebra 2 is stupid. Math should be taught as an integrated whole.

Again it is just like a language. Kids don’t take Spanish 1 - German 1 - Spanish 2. But that is the equivalent of
what the US does with math.

I think the problem with American math is happening long before they get to HS. In most other countries, the early years in math are spent focusing on calculations exclusively. By the time they get to different math types in HS or college, they can already calculate really well and work with numbers. In American math, the entire elementary time is spent with math that is maybe half to one third calcuation at best, and the rest is meaningless junk that doesn't even exist as math in other countries. For example, there is a ton of vocabulary (that isn't necessary for calculating), writing paragraphs about how you solved a problem, coming up with your own way to solve a problem and then talking about it in a group, doing number trees and other weird exercises that only exist in elementary school, and so on. Show this to a student from China and they will think we are nuts and say something like "that's not math." Because it isn't math. Americans don't even know what math is.

Research suggests this is not true at all. International comparisons of high performing math countries in Elementary school (e.g., Singapore, Japan, Finland) show that they do fewer calculations, more open-ended problem solving. Americans do far more calculations in elementary school. The problem is they are canned and sorted--you learn a problem type, you practice that problem type and you are told whether it is correct or not.

This is just a confusion of vocabulary. When I said calculations, I meant working with numbers as opposed to writing number sentences and paragraphs and demonstrating your thinking by coloring a piece of paper and talking about it with a friend. You are just talking about, as you said, a different way of working with them. But American elementary students do very little actually working with numbers - a huge amount of time is spent on non-numerical items, including things like estimating the height of a wall in human body lengths or something similar. I know because I was a teacher, and while most kids couldn't solve an equation we still had to stop working on whatever equation it was and start teaching them how many potato sacks a car might weigh, or the definition of a bunch of math vocabulary words that would appear on an SOL test (but not how to actually use the words to solve an equation - just to choose the correct definition on a standardized test).

I’ve been a math teacher for over 20 years, and I literally have no idea what you’re talking about “how many potato sacks a car would weigh?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even if a 5th grader can handle Algebra I, as sixth graders they will struggle with Geometry (proofs, less so the math), and it gets progressively harder from there. On that track, all the 10th graders will be taking AP Calc BC, Multivariable in 11th, and then what?

I doubt there is a school system on earth where it is common for kids to take calculus in 10th grade, and higher level math thereafter.

Yes there is:
https://www.mathacademy.us/press

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?

You can approximate this information from the numbers of FCPS students who took the SOL in Algebra I (assuming most parents don't opt their children out). In 2021/22, most students would have completed Algebra I by the end of 8th grade, but it's barely above 50%.
The actual numbers are:

6th grade: 0.15%
7th grade: 10.28%
8th grade: 41.37%
9th grade: 38.29%
10th grade: 6.15%
11th grade: 3.15%
12th grade: 0.60%

That means 51.8% completed it before 9th grade, and 90.10% by 9th grade. In 2021/22.
In my personal opinion, this is a healthy distribution that reflects the span of ability and motivation you would expect to find across these age groups.

Is there a breakdown by school? I know in some schools half take algebra by 7th grade.

I seriously doubt that. Only 20% of the County is in 6th grade AAP LIV. A smaller percentage of the kids take Advanced Math in 6th grade. Even assuming that 50% of the kids in 6th grade take the IAAT, a significant percentage do not meet the threshold for Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade.

A Center MS, like Carson, probably has a higher percentage of kids in Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade but I would be surprised to find it was half the school. Maybe 25% of the school.

I was told this by the principal around 2020 prior to the VMPI changes, and am under the impression that some nearby schools had even more acceleration. One school had multiple classes in school for Algebra 2 in 8th grade.

But of course you won't tell us which one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if a 5th grader can handle Algebra I, as sixth graders they will struggle with Geometry (proofs, less so the math), and it gets progressively harder from there. On that track, all the 10th graders will be taking AP Calc BC, Multivariable in 11th, and then what?

I doubt there is a school system on earth where it is common for kids to take calculus in 10th grade, and higher level math thereafter.

Yes there is:
https://www.mathacademy.us/press

"Math Academy is a Pasadena Unified School District program aimed at radically accelerating the learning curve of its mathematically gifted students by providing a curriculum that matches their abilities ...." It seems like a really cool concept, but kids have to take two exams to get into the program, so it's hardly a program where every student (or most students) are accelerated to a high degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i

Anonymous wrote:Even if a 5th grader can handle Algebra I, as sixth graders they will struggle with Geometry (proofs, less so the math), and it gets progressively harder from there. On that track, all the 10th graders will be taking AP Calc BC, Multivariable in 11th, and then what?

I doubt there is a school system on earth where it is common for kids to take calculus in 10th grade, and higher level math thereafter.

AP Stat would be one class that would be of value for research projects in college. Other options would be differential equations or linear Algebra. Would probably need to be taught DE at local college.

DP. You're not making the case that any student needs to take algebra earlier 7th or 8th on an accelerated track, fyi.

Yes, I am aware starting Algebra 1 in 8th grade will allow a student to take Calculus as a Senior.

My point is that there should not be a cap, they should be allowed to get to Calculus and beyond, and starting Algebra 1 in 7th gives you one addition course such as statistics.

The US needs to do a better job of integrating Algebraic and other concepts from day one. You can solve for X in preschool using marbles. Will every kid get the concept at 4 the first time the teacher does it, no. Does it start to introduce concepts of Algebra, yes. Will they get it eventually, yes.

No different that exposing them to a second language at this age. The earlier they start the better.

Again the accelerated track is not for everyone, and there are off-ramps that can be taken at any time. But why artificially stop the progress at Calculus or Calculus + 1. Why place a ceiling on math or any subject. It makes no sense.

They don’t. There is a small percentage of kids that go well beyond Calc or Calc +1. My daughter knows a kid who did AP Calc BC as a 9th grader. IIRC, one of the Regeneron kids from a couple of years ago did it in 8th grade. Your average HS math teacher is not equipped to handle these kids, so they have to seek other paths to continue their math journey, usually involving DE/college.

This in no way means that most kids should be taking Algebra I in 5th grade.

The US does pre-algebra integrated with other math early on. It just starts separating out math once it hits Algebra1. Many other countries integrate math more throughout all the years. So the idea of "taking Algebra 1" doesn't match up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?

You can approximate this information from the numbers of FCPS students who took the SOL in Algebra I (assuming most parents don't opt their children out). In 2021/22, most students would have completed Algebra I by the end of 8th grade, but it's barely above 50%.
The actual numbers are:

6th grade: 0.15%
7th grade: 10.28%
8th grade: 41.37%
9th grade: 38.29%
10th grade: 6.15%
11th grade: 3.15%
12th grade: 0.60%

That means 51.8% completed it before 9th grade, and 90.10% by 9th grade. In 2021/22.
In my personal opinion, this is a healthy distribution that reflects the span of ability and motivation you would expect to find across these age groups.

Is there a breakdown by school? I know in some schools half take algebra by 7th grade.

I seriously doubt that. Only 20% of the County is in 6th grade AAP LIV. A smaller percentage of the kids take Advanced Math in 6th grade. Even assuming that 50% of the kids in 6th grade take the IAAT, a significant percentage do not meet the threshold for Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade.

A Center MS, like Carson, probably has a higher percentage of kids in Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade but I would be surprised to find it was half the school. Maybe 25% of the school.

I was told this by the principal around 2020 prior to the VMPI changes, and am under the impression that some nearby schools had even more acceleration. One school had multiple classes in school for Algebra 2 in 8th grade.

But of course you won't tell us which one.

If it happened, then it would have been Carson or one of the other TJ feeders that is an AAP Center. Those are the only schools that would have enough kids who might have had Algebra in 6th grade or kids who feel motivated/pressure to take Geometry in the summer. It would be highly uncommon and probably not a good or necessary thing for most of the kids in that class, especially if they did Geometry in the summer.

[Anonymous]

i took it in 6th grade, in spring hill elementary school, and at the time i averaged 97% on my exams and a 566 on my SOL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?

It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.

So my freshman at UVA who took Algebra I in 9th grade was a fluke, I suppose?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?

You can approximate this information from the numbers of FCPS students who took the SOL in Algebra I (assuming most parents don't opt their children out). In 2021/22, most students would have completed Algebra I by the end of 8th grade, but it's barely above 50%.
The actual numbers are:

6th grade: 0.15%
7th grade: 10.28%
8th grade: 41.37%
9th grade: 38.29%
10th grade: 6.15%
11th grade: 3.15%
12th grade: 0.60%

That means 51.8% completed it before 9th grade, and 90.10% by 9th grade. In 2021/22.
In my personal opinion, this is a healthy distribution that reflects the span of ability and motivation you would expect to find across these age groups.

Is there a breakdown by school? I know in some schools half take algebra by 7th grade.

I seriously doubt that. Only 20% of the County is in 6th grade AAP LIV. A smaller percentage of the kids take Advanced Math in 6th grade. Even assuming that 50% of the kids in 6th grade take the IAAT, a significant percentage do not meet the threshold for Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade.

A Center MS, like Carson, probably has a higher percentage of kids in Algebra 1 Honors in 7th grade but I would be surprised to find it was half the school. Maybe 25% of the school.

I was told this by the principal around 2020 prior to the VMPI changes, and am under the impression that some nearby schools had even more acceleration. One school had multiple classes in school for Algebra 2 in 8th grade.

But of course you won't tell us which one.

I know Carson has multiple A2H classes. I would guess Longfellow, Cooper, and Rocky Run have multiple classes. SOL scores show around 350 kids in A2H in 8th grade, some schools don’t offer it at all, so yes, some schools have multiple classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?

It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.

So my freshman at UVA who took Algebra I in 9th grade was a fluke, I suppose?

Possibly, UVA might release that data but I wouldn’t worry guess that most kids attending UVA from NOVA take Algebra 1 in MS. Only 25% of students take Algebra in 9th grade, most take it in MS.