Do people who do PhDs realize that they aren’t worth the time?

[Anonymous]

If I won the lottery tomorrow and could do anything I wished, at the top of my list would be enrolling into a PhD program. The notion that a PhD ‘isn’t worth it’ is very revealing as to the value system of the person asserting it. Many people believe deeply in the value of education for its own sake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This very much depends on the field. I made $30k on fellowship with full tuition each year of my PhD. That's about what I would have made with just a BS in chemistry. And I certainly didn't finish my PhD making $60k. Job offers were over 6 figures.

+1

[Anonymous]

I wanted to do a professional degree in a practical field and my college professors strongly encouraged me to go for the Ph.D. and stroked my ego about how smart I was. I did it. It was an amazing intellectual experience and also a total waste of time that I would not do over. And, that was when people were still saying that when the boomers retired all the good academic jobs would open up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are a huge waste of time & money. Massive opportunity cost. If you have undergrad student loans, you will have a very difficult time paying them down during a PhD program. People come out at 29 making $60k if they’re lucky, when they could’ve started making that at 22.

depends on what you do your Phd in...any questions may be directed to dr. page, dr. brin (not sure he finished) or dr. venter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and experimental sciences (not social sciences), MS and PhD programs are usually free with an additional cash stipendin exchange for being a TA/RA. So those programs graduate students with little or no grad school debt, and with very solid job prospects.

PhDs in non-science/non-engineering subjects often have huge debt and result in jobs with much lower incomes afterwards.

So the reality is that cost/benefit of grad school varies very widely and the cost/benefit correlates strongly by the type of degree.

Most humanities and social science PhD programs also are typically ‘free.’

Depends on what you mean. Their stipends are lower than STEM PhD students. $30k/year stipend won’t get you far in Boston or Berkeley even with several roommates.

Definitely not free wrt opportunity cost!

Yeah, let's talk about opportunity costs. My sister got a radiology tech associates degree and immediately started making ~60k (today's dollars) right out of college, no debt. 20 years later, she was making ~80k, felt like she wanted to do something different and make more money, and had absolutely no way to go about doing it because her particular degree is so specific.

If you get a PhD in, say, a social science (which is what mine is in), you make ~30k in today's dollars. Then let's say you start at 60K -- and sure, you spent 6-8 years making 30k less than our radiology tech sister. College professors, depending, can hit 150-200K in that field 20 years after they graduate. Plus, the job allows you to have way more control over your life than working a job like my sister's. The government, consulting firms, nonprofits -- all of these hire PhDs regularly.

Yes you need to be a little lucky, and a lot good at it, to become wealthy -- but that's true in all sorts of jobs.

[Anonymous]

Not sure where you are coming from…but it is beyond weird that you are giving everyone blanket career advice.

Getting a PhD was the best thing I ever did for my career and quality of life.

You do you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and experimental sciences (not social sciences), MS and PhD programs are usually free with an additional cash stipendin exchange for being a TA/RA. So those programs graduate students with little or no grad school debt, and with very solid job prospects.

PhDs in non-science/non-engineering subjects often have huge debt and result in jobs with much lower incomes afterwards.

So the reality is that cost/benefit of grad school varies very widely and the cost/benefit correlates strongly by the type of degree.

Most humanities and social science PhD programs also are typically ‘free.’

Depends on what you mean. Their stipends are lower than STEM PhD students. $30k/year stipend won’t get you far in Boston or Berkeley even with several roommates.

Definitely not free wrt opportunity cost!

Yeah, let's talk about opportunity costs. My sister got a radiology tech associates degree and immediately started making ~60k (today's dollars) right out of college, no debt. 20 years later, she was making ~80k, felt like she wanted to do something different and make more money, and had absolutely no way to go about doing it because her particular degree is so specific.

If you get a PhD in, say, a social science (which is what mine is in), you make ~30k in today's dollars. Then let's say you start at 60K -- and sure, you spent 6-8 years making 30k less than our radiology tech sister. College professors, depending, can hit 150-200K in that field 20 years after they graduate. Plus, the job allows you to have way more control over your life than working a job like my sister's. The government, consulting firms, nonprofits -- all of these hire PhDs regularly.

Yes you need to be a little lucky, and a lot good at it, to become wealthy -- but that's true in all sorts of jobs.

Nope, not in non-STEM, non-business fields. There are basically no spots open today for TT faculty in the humanities or social sciences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:BUPPP = bringing up a previous poster's post

What is SME?

In my world, SME = small to medium enterprise. Yes?

Subject matter expert

D'oh! Thanks.

[Anonymous]

The “money doesn’t matter!” crowd quickly changes their tune once they hit 30 and realize the gap between their do-holder selves & their peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not really sure who PhDs are aimed at. I had to take out the max student loans just to afford a bachelor’s and I understood that I needed to start earning ASAP. No time to frolic about studying literature or zoology.

Google is your friend.

You'll quickly learn no one is frolicking through them.

They are aimed at rich kids who don’t seem to need money until their late 20s.

Not even slightly true.

I have *never* worked harder than while I was getting my PhD. It’s not a gentle path that someone would take without really wanting to

Did you mistakenly respond to the wrong post? Because your post here makes no sense.

[Anonymous]

There are absolutely people who go to PhD programs without realizing how few jobs there are available in their chosen field and they don't really adjust to the market to increase their odds. If they don't have a fallback option they can end up as an itinerant lecturer, moving from school to school every year on one year or one semester gigs and then from school to school in a city where they get paid by the credit hour and can barely make ends meet. One of the reasons you see lecturers unions rising in power and numbers is because universities are replacing retiring faculty with an endless stream of visitors, adjunct lecturers, and part-timers, none of whom get paid or treated very well. Moreover, the end result is less likely that lecturers will get paid better, but as the gap between the pay of lecturers and professors narrow, they'll hire a few more regular professors and make them teach a lot more for not as much pay growth and leave most itinerant lecturers without even that as an option.

That's why you see more and more teachers with PhDs hired at private high schools. It's more stable and they weren't getting to do research anyway. It's also why you see fewer applications for grad students in the more academia-focused PhD programs at lesser schools. Students are more and more aware of the odds and departments are doing a better job of educating PhD applicants about what jobs they can do with their degree outside of the ivory tower.

This is not exactly unique to academics though. Top people succeed in lots of things, while average and below do not. 2022 was the year of the union in the tech industry and you're starting to see computer science grads unionizing in fields like video games etc that are notorious for abusing their employees. This generation's influx of computer science grads will find their job prospects capped out and replaced with cheaper labor.

The opportunity cost of getting a PhD is not unique either. There's a form of opportunity cost to getting a job straight out of college too. Once you've worked in an industry for awhile, it's really hard to truly train for a new one. You often are in a different place in your life family-wise and you can't afford to go back to school or take a cheaper job while you re-tool. Plus, there's a lot of bias against hiring people who are coming to new careers later in life.

Having said all of that depressing stuff, the lesson is that if you can do something you like, that fulfills you, and doesn't leave you destitute, that's kind of priceless. You certainly don't want to live your life regretting you didn't try something you were really passionate about. Many of the people on this board are so prestige driven because they are living lives of the proverbial "quiet desperation."

BUT, If you're doing a PhD, the kinder, gentler sentiment behind the OP's condescending and insecure post is be practical about the field, the package they're offering while you're in school, and the cost of living at that place. And have a realistic fall-back for the PhD that is not being a professor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and experimental sciences (not social sciences), MS and PhD programs are usually free with an additional cash stipendin exchange for being a TA/RA. So those programs graduate students with little or no grad school debt, and with very solid job prospects.

PhDs in non-science/non-engineering subjects often have huge debt and result in jobs with much lower incomes afterwards.

So the reality is that cost/benefit of grad school varies very widely and the cost/benefit correlates strongly by the type of degree.

Most humanities and social science PhD programs also are typically ‘free.’

Depends on what you mean. Their stipends are lower than STEM PhD students. $30k/year stipend won’t get you far in Boston or Berkeley even with several roommates.

Definitely not free wrt opportunity cost!

Yeah, let's talk about opportunity costs. My sister got a radiology tech associates degree and immediately started making ~60k (today's dollars) right out of college, no debt. 20 years later, she was making ~80k, felt like she wanted to do something different and make more money, and had absolutely no way to go about doing it because her particular degree is so specific.

If you get a PhD in, say, a social science (which is what mine is in), you make ~30k in today's dollars. Then let's say you start at 60K -- and sure, you spent 6-8 years making 30k less than our radiology tech sister. College professors, depending, can hit 150-200K in that field 20 years after they graduate. Plus, the job allows you to have way more control over your life than working a job like my sister's. The government, consulting firms, nonprofits -- all of these hire PhDs regularly.

Yes you need to be a little lucky, and a lot good at it, to become wealthy -- but that's true in all sorts of jobs.

Nope, not in non-STEM, non-business fields. There are basically no spots open today for TT faculty in the humanities or social sciences.

Depends on the social science.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The “money doesn’t matter!” crowd quickly changes their tune once they hit 30 and realize the gap between their do-holder selves & their peers.

Not really, because they have the good fortune of a lot of highly educated interesting peers. Not everyone values the same things.

[Anonymous]

Education is useless for 90% of people beyond age 10. The world needs Dutch diggers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and experimental sciences (not social sciences), MS and PhD programs are usually free with an additional cash stipendin exchange for being a TA/RA. So those programs graduate students with little or no grad school debt, and with very solid job prospects.

PhDs in non-science/non-engineering subjects often have huge debt and result in jobs with much lower incomes afterwards.

So the reality is that cost/benefit of grad school varies very widely and the cost/benefit correlates strongly by the type of degree.

Most humanities and social science PhD programs also are typically ‘free.’

Depends on what you mean. Their stipends are lower than STEM PhD students. $30k/year stipend won’t get you far in Boston or Berkeley even with several roommates.

Definitely not free wrt opportunity cost!

Yeah, let's talk about opportunity costs. My sister got a radiology tech associates degree and immediately started making ~60k (today's dollars) right out of college, no debt. 20 years later, she was making ~80k, felt like she wanted to do something different and make more money, and had absolutely no way to go about doing it because her particular degree is so specific.

If you get a PhD in, say, a social science (which is what mine is in), you make ~30k in today's dollars. Then let's say you start at 60K -- and sure, you spent 6-8 years making 30k less than our radiology tech sister. College professors, depending, can hit 150-200K in that field 20 years after they graduate. Plus, the job allows you to have way more control over your life than working a job like my sister's. The government, consulting firms, nonprofits -- all of these hire PhDs regularly.

Yes you need to be a little lucky, and a lot good at it, to become wealthy -- but that's true in all sorts of jobs.

Nope, not in non-STEM, non-business fields. There are basically no spots open today for TT faculty in the humanities or social sciences.

This is just flat out false. 5 seconds of google searching will help you.
https://www.higheredjobs.com/faculty/search.cfm?JobCat=90&StartRow=-1&SortBy=4&NumJobs=25&filterby=&filterptype=1&CatType=

It's not "market season" for political science, but there are still TT jobs on this list.

Look at the placement records for major programs; they put this info online. Are there thousands of jobs? No. Do you get to pick where you live? Not necessarily. But to say there are "basically no tenure track jobs" is just untrue.