Stimulus money for soccer clubs?

[Anonymous]

In another messageboard some parents mentioned their clubs applied for some 'paycheck protection' money and they were now giving refunds to parents as the have some financial resources now. Could that be true? Wasn't sure clubs could apply. Any clubs around here apply (saw all those threads about private schools like Sidwell applying so maybe).

[Anonymous]

Sure, why not? I know of non-profit clubs in other sports that have applied and gotten these loans.

[Anonymous]

Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

The PPP is intended to cover payroll not refunds. That isn’t to say that the clubs shouldn’t have more resources to payback refunds especially if their payroll costs are being covered, but it being forgivable only has to do with payroll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

As crazy as it sounds, You also do not have to certify or prove losses to obtain and forgive the PPP. The only requirement is the 75% to payroll and 25% to rent and utilities as the PP stated. Clubs could take the PPP even with no loss of income and still have it forgiven. I’m sure they are looking at the bigger picture of future lost income when deciding on refunds and the ability to survive long term though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

As crazy as it sounds, You also do not have to certify or prove losses to obtain and forgive the PPP. The only requirement is the 75% to payroll and 25% to rent and utilities as the PP stated. Clubs could take the PPP even with no loss of income and still have it forgiven. I’m sure they are looking at the bigger picture of future lost income when deciding on refunds and the ability to survive long term though.

Their problem isn't going to be documenting how the money was spent. It's going to documenting whether it was really needed in the first place. The loan application requires the business to certify that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business."

In response to criticism, the SBA has focussed on that "necessary" language, and reminded businesses of the language on the bottom of the application, which says that knowingly making a false statement can subject the applicant to significant criminal and civil penalties. They have now stated that all PPP loan applicants will be audited. There is currently a grace period extended to 5/15 for businesses to return the loan if it was not "necessary."

So for a soccer club, if there has been no loss of income at all (because they've continued to collect and retain all the same fees), they could be in trouble trying to justify the necessity of the loan. In other words they can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't say to parents, "I'm sorry we have to keep charging you, but it's the only way we can pay our employees," and then at the same time run to the government saying, "Please give us this free money, because it's the only way we can pay our employees."

Here's an article from Forbes if you're interested: https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alangassman/2020/05/04/was-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15887959328580&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Falangassman%2F2020%2F05%2F04%2Fwas-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions%2F.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

As crazy as it sounds, You also do not have to certify or prove losses to obtain and forgive the PPP. The only requirement is the 75% to payroll and 25% to rent and utilities as the PP stated. Clubs could take the PPP even with no loss of income and still have it forgiven. I’m sure they are looking at the bigger picture of future lost income when deciding on refunds and the ability to survive long term though.

Their problem isn't going to be documenting how the money was spent. It's going to documenting whether it was really needed in the first place. The loan application requires the business to certify that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business."

In response to criticism, the SBA has focussed on that "necessary" language, and reminded businesses of the language on the bottom of the application, which says that knowingly making a false statement can subject the applicant to significant criminal and civil penalties. They have now stated that all PPP loan applicants will be audited. There is currently a grace period extended to 5/15 for businesses to return the loan if it was not "necessary."

So for a soccer club, if there has been no loss of income at all (because they've continued to collect and retain all the same fees), they could be in trouble trying to justify the necessity of the loan. In other words they can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't say to parents, "I'm sorry we have to keep charging you, but it's the only way we can pay our employees," and then at the same time run to the government saying, "Please give us this free money, because it's the only way we can pay our employees."

Here's an article from Forbes if you're interested: https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alangassman/2020/05/04/was-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15887959328580&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Falangassman%2F2020%2F05%2F04%2Fwas-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions%2F.

+100 As someone pretty involved with the PPP SBA program, and have written several articles on this. If a soccer program applied for PPP funds, and have not refunded parents, they could be in trouble. Most likely they are the small fish, and may be overlooked, but you cannot have a PPP loan, and have a fully funded soccer program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

As crazy as it sounds, You also do not have to certify or prove losses to obtain and forgive the PPP. The only requirement is the 75% to payroll and 25% to rent and utilities as the PP stated. Clubs could take the PPP even with no loss of income and still have it forgiven. I’m sure they are looking at the bigger picture of future lost income when deciding on refunds and the ability to survive long term though.

Their problem isn't going to be documenting how the money was spent. It's going to documenting whether it was really needed in the first place. The loan application requires the business to certify that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business."

In response to criticism, the SBA has focussed on that "necessary" language, and reminded businesses of the language on the bottom of the application, which says that knowingly making a false statement can subject the applicant to significant criminal and civil penalties. They have now stated that all PPP loan applicants will be audited. There is currently a grace period extended to 5/15 for businesses to return the loan if it was not "necessary."

So for a soccer club, if there has been no loss of income at all (because they've continued to collect and retain all the same fees), they could be in trouble trying to justify the necessity of the loan. In other words they can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't say to parents, "I'm sorry we have to keep charging you, but it's the only way we can pay our employees," and then at the same time run to the government saying, "Please give us this free money, because it's the only way we can pay our employees."

Here's an article from Forbes if you're interested: https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alangassman/2020/05/04/was-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15887959328580&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Falangassman%2F2020%2F05%2F04%2Fwas-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions%2F.

+100 As someone pretty involved with the PPP SBA program, and have written several articles on this. If a soccer program applied for PPP funds, and have not refunded parents, they could be in trouble. Most likely they are the small fish, and may be overlooked, but you cannot have a PPP loan, and have a fully funded soccer program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

As crazy as it sounds, You also do not have to certify or prove losses to obtain and forgive the PPP. The only requirement is the 75% to payroll and 25% to rent and utilities as the PP stated. Clubs could take the PPP even with no loss of income and still have it forgiven. I’m sure they are looking at the bigger picture of future lost income when deciding on refunds and the ability to survive long term though.

Their problem isn't going to be documenting how the money was spent. It's going to documenting whether it was really needed in the first place. The loan application requires the business to certify that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business."

In response to criticism, the SBA has focussed on that "necessary" language, and reminded businesses of the language on the bottom of the application, which says that knowingly making a false statement can subject the applicant to significant criminal and civil penalties. They have now stated that all PPP loan applicants will be audited. There is currently a grace period extended to 5/15 for businesses to return the loan if it was not "necessary."

So for a soccer club, if there has been no loss of income at all (because they've continued to collect and retain all the same fees), they could be in trouble trying to justify the necessity of the loan. In other words they can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't say to parents, "I'm sorry we have to keep charging you, but it's the only way we can pay our employees," and then at the same time run to the government saying, "Please give us this free money, because it's the only way we can pay our employees."

Here's an article from Forbes if you're interested: https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alangassman/2020/05/04/was-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15887959328580&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Falangassman%2F2020%2F05%2F04%2Fwas-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions%2F.

+100 As someone pretty involved with the PPP SBA program, and have written several articles on this. If a soccer program applied for PPP funds, and have not refunded parents, they could be in trouble. Most likely they are the small fish, and may be overlooked, but you cannot have a PPP loan, and have a fully funded soccer program.

I hope they're reading this! Or are aware!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes clubs have applied and gotten money. Does not mean they are refunding money to all

Having applied for this as a small business owner myself, if they take the PPP. money and don't refund and/or waive fees, they will have a hard time getting the loan forgiven, and could actually be in some trouble.

You have to certify that the loan is necessary because of lost income due to the pandemic. Other than clubs whose finances are heavily dependent on profits from Spring tournaments that they had to cancel, I don't see how they could do that if they aren't refunding fees.

The general idea is that it's supposed to be a lifeline, not a windfall.

This is not true at all. They have to use at least 75% of the proceeds for payroll and the rest can be used for mortgage/rent. There's no correlation between forgiveness and refunds to customers.

I'm no expert on how the money has to be used. But it is perfectly possible for the pp to be correct and that loan itself must be used on payroll and rent. The point here is that, if the clubs don;t issue refunds then they have all their regular income so wouldn't need a bailout to make payroll and rent. If they wish to apply for a bailout to cover payroll and rent, they would need to certify that they have lost their income as a result of the lockdown. And if they don;t issue refunds then they haven't lost their income.

Not saying this is the case - just that it could be.

As crazy as it sounds, You also do not have to certify or prove losses to obtain and forgive the PPP. The only requirement is the 75% to payroll and 25% to rent and utilities as the PP stated. Clubs could take the PPP even with no loss of income and still have it forgiven. I’m sure they are looking at the bigger picture of future lost income when deciding on refunds and the ability to survive long term though.

Their problem isn't going to be documenting how the money was spent. It's going to documenting whether it was really needed in the first place. The loan application requires the business to certify that the loan is "necessary to support the ongoing operations of the business."

In response to criticism, the SBA has focussed on that "necessary" language, and reminded businesses of the language on the bottom of the application, which says that knowingly making a false statement can subject the applicant to significant criminal and civil penalties. They have now stated that all PPP loan applicants will be audited. There is currently a grace period extended to 5/15 for businesses to return the loan if it was not "necessary."

So for a soccer club, if there has been no loss of income at all (because they've continued to collect and retain all the same fees), they could be in trouble trying to justify the necessity of the loan. In other words they can't have their cake and eat it too. They can't say to parents, "I'm sorry we have to keep charging you, but it's the only way we can pay our employees," and then at the same time run to the government saying, "Please give us this free money, because it's the only way we can pay our employees."

Here's an article from Forbes if you're interested: https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alangassman/2020/05/04/was-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15887959328580&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Falangassman%2F2020%2F05%2F04%2Fwas-your-ppp-loan-necessaryif-not-there-could-be-horrific-repercussions%2F.

+100 As someone pretty involved with the PPP SBA program, and have written several articles on this. If a soccer program applied for PPP funds, and have not refunded parents, they could be in trouble. Most likely they are the small fish, and may be overlooked, but you cannot have a PPP loan, and have a fully funded soccer program.

I’m not saying what is ethically right or wrong but “necessary” is vague at best. If a program thinks it is necessary for long-term survival then I can see that being justification. If hedge funds are able to justify it, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a soccer club to. Personally, I do think they should return the money or partially refund if they aren’t negatively impacted by Fall.

[Anonymous]

The PPP stands for Payroll Protection Program. At least 75% has to pay for employee (staff and coaches) payroll and 25% for utility costs (electricity, water and telecommunications).

There’s no mention of refund of money to customers (parents) in the SBA PPP Bill.

Soccer Leagues and Clubs declaring economic hardship is very easy to prove/justify to their lenders and the SBA.

PP above indicating any clubs that applied for PPP and not refunding the parents could be in trouble is 1000% wrong. Please go read the bill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The PPP stands for Payroll Protection Program. At least 75% has to pay for employee (staff and coaches) payroll and 25% for utility costs (electricity, water and telecommunications).

There’s no mention of refund of money to customers (parents) in the SBA PPP Bill.

Soccer Leagues and Clubs declaring economic hardship is very easy to prove/justify to their lenders and the SBA.

PP above indicating any clubs that applied for PPP and not refunding the parents could be in trouble is 1000% wrong. Please go read the bill.

PP here who writes about this.

I agree, if you read the bill then it looks fine. But the interpretation of the bill keeps changing.

If you read the PPP FAQs (that keep changing), the clubs would be in trouble if there is an audit.

The money is intended to be used between the date of loan origination and the following 8-weeks. The prepaid soccer season lasts longer than the current 8 week limit to use the funds.

Whether the SBA is legally allowed to keep changing the rules of the game and using "vague" terms is another issue.