Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So true. Thank you for your gentle reminder. I think its time for me to refer this thread & others over to a few anti defamation and Islamic relations groups and bow out, especially now that I see this posters unwillingness to learn Quranic Arabic or talk to any scholar. I have been replying but trying to keep my cool. But I did read in the Quran the other day that Allah wants us to leave such people to Him to deal with. I shall do both.

Please say a dua for me.

Reading between the lines, since you've been called out for your gross insults, now you're going with threats.

But we do now have a definition of an Islam hater: Someone who refuses to learn Quranic Arabic or talk to an Islamic scholar.

I see. Might they also be a christianevangelicalcrusader with STDs and no teeth? That would narrow the pool a little. Otherwise that description fits pretty much anyone non-Muslim, and a big old chunk of Muslims.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when CAIR staff read this thread, particularly the parts where Muslim PP calls Western women gap-toothed sluts with STDs.

Chances that PP will forward this thread to CAIR: zero.

This doesn't even make sense to me. I lost my cool with the posters who vilified Islam. I'm not beyond admitting that. I know an executive at CAIR and have no qualms about showing her the entire thread. No fears at all. But I think they can call other organizations who may help Muslims here using the media.

Chances that CAIR will do something about it: zero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Looks to me like you are afraid to meet with a muslim.

I grew up among them, married one, gave birth to one and am carrying another, you ninny. There's nothing remotely scary about most of them.

Any muslim man that married a woman with such rank hatred of his religion is probably going to be asked by Allah WHY he married you and allowed you to be responsible for raising muslim children. I want front seats for that questioning. One has to ask if he is a true Muslim.

I can tell you spent time in KSA. Such an easy hand with takfir.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You just can't stop yourself from spinning threads to make it look like you were even remotely persuasive.

Anonymous wrote:[

Oh puhhhhhleassseeee. And for anybody who really wants a laugh, a summary of this thread and the genuine "challenges" Muslim posters faced:

...

Muslim: the sura Muslima quoted showed that Islam made women politically relevant
IslamHater: No, it was an admission for membership into the Prophets tribe.
Muslim: yes, and that an oath was administered for entry into his tribe makes her politically relevant because more oaths= more power
IslamHater: okay, but then its at least discriminatory because the same oath was not administered to men. <note the deflection again>
Muslim: ummm, yes it was. A group of men took the oath in the treaty under the tree, to become members of his tribe and pledge allegiance to the Prophet.
IslamHater: <silence>

And there you have it folks. These are not challenges. They are pitiful misunderstandings based on her google ability, TV shows about Indonesian children, radio shows airing uneducated listener comments who she likes to mock, and reliance on unreliable, literal English translations of the holy Quran.

Here's what you actually said, right in the middle of the debate on whether women had the vote 1400 years ago, on page 35 if anybody wants to go back and see for themselves:

10/10/2014 01:20

Anonymous wrote:[Muslima, I'm just an ignorant, barefoot, veiled Muslim gal. Can you explain to me what it means to be a very American woman? Does it mean she's wearing a baseball cap, her boyfriend's boxers, a nose ring, a few tattoos, and eating apple pie? ??

10/10/2014 01:07

Anonymous wrote:Post a pic of your last pap smear lab results showing your STD (HPV seems to be popular in western states) and maybe we Muslims will feel sorry for you too.

And then your "apology" took the form of faking regret for insulting all American women, instead of just insulting your nemesis (not me).

FWIW, I've been watching this thread, and I agree with the PP who says that you failed to prove that satisfying a demand to promise you will behave yourself is a form of "voting." It's more like when the INS used to turn away people with tuberculosis, because no host country wants to allow people to enter who will contaminate the home population, either physically (tuberculosis) or morally (the Muslim woman's pledge of good behavior).

Your error above is in the fourth line, where you claim your nemesis says "okay" to your claim that this makes women "politically relevant." No, she never said that. Nobody else ever said that, either. You're making that up.

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

You're confusing me with your nemesis. Yes, we know that:
1. One poster several threads ago called Mohammed a pedophile. That was wrong, and I too am glad that nobody has insulted him in the last several weeks.
2. Someone, not me but maybe your nemesis, referred to the djinn in the bathroom. You're taking that out of context. As I recall, that was in the context of whether Islam is really monotheistic, if little semi-divine creatures like djinn exist in our lives.

Otherwise, I can't recall other examples that might be taken as "mocking Islam." Please provide additional examples. I agree that a TON of posts criticized you and Muslima for various shady debating techniques you used. I hope you can see the difference here.

If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your bald statements like "Islam gives equality to women" need to be clarified with detail on women's unequal inheritance, divorce and witness rights, then you have much bigger problems. If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your statement that "Islam gives women divorce rights" needs to be clarified with detail on how men have free and easy divorce rights compared to women (who have limited divorce rights, only get alimony for three months, and lose their children if they remarry), then you have much bigger problems. If asking you to prove your assertion that converts are growing faster than immigrants is tantamount to "mocking Islam," then you have much bigger problems. I can go back and find where you made each one of these misleading assertions. Why don't you show us how clarifying all the things you "neglected" to mention in connection with your assertions is tantamount to "mocking Islam."

Actually I think its time for others to get involved now. I will let Islamic interfaith, Islamic relations, and anti-defamation groups get involved at this point. It is useless cycling old points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

I don't need to seek a scholar because I don't have any misunderstandings about Islam. The fact that I disagree with your claims on what Islam commands doesn't mean I misunderstand it. The fact that you call them misunderstandings means nothing to me. What could possibly make you an arbiter of the right ways to study Islam? Islam wasn't meant to require squadrons of scholars.

The majority of Muslims don't understand Quranic Arabic. Go pick on them.

You weren't actually able to find factual counterarguments to what I posted. You just got mad. It was fun to watch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually I think its time for others to get involved now. I will let Islamic interfaith, Islamic relations, and anti-defamation groups get involved at this point. It is useless cycling old points.

Chances that they will get involved: zero.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

So you are RETIRED (i.e. up there in age) and still use language like that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A Muslim who converts is said to have committed apostasy. This is ok if you are in the West where no one cares what your personal faith is, but in a number of Arab countries you risk death under Islamic law. And in others, the conversion simply isn't recognized; your civil status remains Muslim. And further under Islamic law the child of a Muslim man--however nominal his religion may be--is automatically a Muslim. A woman marrying a nonMuslim--which means her children would not be Muslim as her children are not automatically Muslim under Islam--also risks death.

This is not so unlike Judaism where the child of a Jewish woman is automatically Jewish. Just that as far as I know death isn't called for if she commits apostasy by converting to another religion or if a Jewish man marries a nonJew.

The bolded part is actually not true. Such marriage simply will not be officiated under Islamic law. The woman won't be killed; she and her non-Muslim fiance will simply not be allowed to contract marriage.

Perhaps not in all Arab countries. But a while ago there was a thread about the pregnant Sudanese woman who was in jail awaiting execution because she married a Christian. Her mother was Christian and she had been raised Christian. A relative showed up on the scene saying the long absent father was Muslim and so she was Muslim and had committed a capital crime by marrying the Christian. This was all backed up by articles from reputable newspapers.

I note that you did not deny anything else in the response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I would love to be a fly on the wall when CAIR staff read this thread, particularly the parts where Muslim PP calls Western women gap-toothed sluts with STDs.

Chances that PP will forward this thread to CAIR: zero.

This doesn't even make sense to me. I lost my cool with the posters who vilified Islam. I'm not beyond admitting that. I know an executive at CAIR and have no qualms about showing her the entire thread. No fears at all. But I think they can call other organizations who may help Muslims here using the media.

I implore you, please forward this thread to CAIR. Be sure to sign your email and tell them how to reach you. (Unless you already work there.)

Bwahaha. Are you really this un-selfaware? Do you really think that you acquitted yourself well, or that challenging your slippery half-truths is identical to "mocking Islam"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole purity test thing is almost identical to what INS asked my grandmother. INS asked my Cambridge-educated grandmother whether she had ever run a house of prostitution. When she said "no," they let her into the US.

This had nothing to do with voting or other rights, which are granted, or not, via completely separate processes (in the US, the Constitution).

Sounds like the exact same "we don't want that kind" thing was going on in Arabia 1400 years ago, although for women not for men.

Again?? Are you kidding me?? Read Sura Ash Shurra on collective decision making then. Oh, but wait. Thats right, I forgot you can't read the Quran. And you don't know Quranic Arabic either. Maybe you shouldn't be the person interpreting the Quran then. Just a thought.

Actually, that poster asked you for a Quranic reference proving that men pledging allegiance to Muhammad (not voting for him, pledging allegiance) were asked to give the same promises as women. You didn't provide anything. Might that be because there isn't one? Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A Muslim who converts is said to have committed apostasy. This is ok if you are in the West where no one cares what your personal faith is, but in a number of Arab countries you risk death under Islamic law. And in others, the conversion simply isn't recognized; your civil status remains Muslim. And further under Islamic law the child of a Muslim man--however nominal his religion may be--is automatically a Muslim. A woman marrying a nonMuslim--which means her children would not be Muslim as her children are not automatically Muslim under Islam--also risks death.

This is not so unlike Judaism where the child of a Jewish woman is automatically Jewish. Just that as far as I know death isn't called for if she commits apostasy by converting to another religion or if a Jewish man marries a nonJew.

The bolded part is actually not true. Such marriage simply will not be officiated under Islamic law. The woman won't be killed; she and her non-Muslim fiance will simply not be allowed to contract marriage.

Perhaps not in all Arab countries. But a while ago there was a thread about the pregnant Sudanese woman who was in jail awaiting execution because she married a Christian. Her mother was Christian and she had been raised Christian. A relative showed up on the scene saying the long absent father was Muslim and so she was Muslim and had committed a capital crime by marrying the Christian. This was all backed up by articles from reputable newspapers.

I note that you did not deny anything else in the response.

You are confusing me with someone else. I'm not Muslim. Re: your example, yes, the Sudanese case was awful. I was referring to a hypothetical scenario of a Muslim woman showing up at the registry office in Cairo, Kuala Lumpur or Damascus and asking to register her marriage to a non-Muslim man. She would simply be turned away. Even in Syria, famous for very liberal Muslim-Christian relations, Christian priests were banned from officiating marriages like these.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course I apologized to you and all nonMuslim women. If you did not understand that, here's clarification- I am sorry for saying that. I lost my cool after seeing very unreasonable arguments and mocking of Islam. For ex, the most recent mockery was when you spoke of the radio station caller who asked an imam if its ok for her to undress when she thought jinn may be in the room. I have a Doctorate degree and worked in IT and law before retirement. If I heard the same caller, I would not have thought to mock her, but would realize she simply needs help in understanding the concept of intent in Islam. You chose to mock her. You like to point out your exceptional intelligence, but exceptionally intelligent people know less intelligent people should not be mocked. Their lack of intelligence may be due to genetic factors, culture, upbringing, and why on earth would anyone hold them accountable for that which they can not control? It's a mean girl tactic and shows your character. Another example is how differently you and I handle curiosity about different faiths. I read the Bible and then sought two knowledgeable priests to better understand Christianity. You, on the other hand, refuse to seek a scholar or learn Quranic Arabic to clarify your own misunderstanding about Islam. Instead, you spout off on DCUM falsities offending the religion of 1.6 billion people. Again, it shows Jeff and Muslima were correct about you all along, you had an agenda.

So I do apologize for my comment about nonMuslim women. I do. But if your motivation is to understand real Islam, you would engage in the serious study of it the right way.

I don't need to seek a scholar because I don't have any misunderstandings about Islam. The fact that I disagree with your claims on what Islam commands doesn't mean I misunderstand it. The fact that you call them misunderstandings means nothing to me. What could possibly make you an arbiter of the right ways to study Islam? Islam wasn't meant to require squadrons of scholars.

The majority of Muslims don't understand Quranic Arabic. Go pick on them.

You weren't actually able to find factual counterarguments to what I posted. You just got mad. It was fun to watch.

Ahhhh, more mockery. Your misunderstanding is based on an inability to read the Quran and lack of understanding of historical context. You will never know this until you speak with a scholar. Members of DCUM who are Muslim know enough to have faith. You need logic and an understanding of Quranic Arabic and history. You'll never know what you don't know without speaking to a true expert.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're confusing me with your nemesis. Yes, we know that:
1. One poster several threads ago called Mohammed a pedophile. That was wrong, and I too am glad that nobody has insulted him in the last several weeks.
2. Someone, not me but maybe your nemesis, referred to the djinn in the bathroom. You're taking that out of context. As I recall, that was in the context of whether Islam is really monotheistic, if little semi-divine creatures like djinn exist in our lives.

Otherwise, I can't recall other examples that might be taken as "mocking Islam." Please provide additional examples. I agree that a TON of posts criticized you and Muslima for various shady debating techniques you used. I hope you can see the difference here.

If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your bald statements like "Islam gives equality to women" need to be clarified with detail on women's unequal inheritance, divorce and witness rights, then you have much bigger problems. If it's "mocking Islam" to point out that your statement that "Islam gives women divorce rights" needs to be clarified with detail on how men have free and easy divorce rights compared to women (who have limited divorce rights, only get alimony for three months, and lose their children if they remarry), then you have much bigger problems. If asking you to prove your assertion that converts are growing faster than immigrants is tantamount to "mocking Islam," then you have much bigger problems. I can go back and find where you made each one of these misleading assertions. Why don't you show us how clarifying all the things you "neglected" to mention in connection with your assertions is tantamount to "mocking Islam."

Actually I think its time for others to get involved now. I will let Islamic interfaith, Islamic relations, and anti-defamation groups get involved at this point. It is useless cycling old points.

Again, involved on what grounds? What grounds? That one person called Mohammed a pedophile several weeks ago? That a PP mocked Islamic scholars (contrary to your assertion that PP was mocking a particular Muslim woman) in one particular instance? You've been asked to point to examples of endemic mockery. You haven't done so. Y

You're just browned off that nobody is swallowing your platitudes whole. But since you've been roundly criticized for things like your STD jab, now you're going with empty threats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
A Muslim who converts is said to have committed apostasy. This is ok if you are in the West where no one cares what your personal faith is, but in a number of Arab countries you risk death under Islamic law. And in others, the conversion simply isn't recognized; your civil status remains Muslim. And further under Islamic law the child of a Muslim man--however nominal his religion may be--is automatically a Muslim. A woman marrying a nonMuslim--which means her children would not be Muslim as her children are not automatically Muslim under Islam--also risks death.

This is not so unlike Judaism where the child of a Jewish woman is automatically Jewish. Just that as far as I know death isn't called for if she commits apostasy by converting to another religion or if a Jewish man marries a nonJew.

The bolded part is actually not true. Such marriage simply will not be officiated under Islamic law. The woman won't be killed; she and her non-Muslim fiance will simply not be allowed to contract marriage.

Perhaps not in all Arab countries. But a while ago there was a thread about the pregnant Sudanese woman who was in jail awaiting execution because she married a Christian. Her mother was Christian and she had been raised Christian. A relative showed up on the scene saying the long absent father was Muslim and so she was Muslim and had committed a capital crime by marrying the Christian. This was all backed up by articles from reputable newspapers.

I note that you did not deny anything else in the response.

You are confusing me with someone else. I'm not Muslim. Re: your example, yes, the Sudanese case was awful. I was referring to a hypothetical scenario of a Muslim woman showing up at the registry office in Cairo, Kuala Lumpur or Damascus and asking to register her marriage to a non-Muslim man. She would simply be turned away. Even in Syria, famous for very liberal Muslim-Christian relations, Christian priests were banned from officiating marriages like these.

Third non-Muslim poster here. Watching you two, there seem to be at least three of us here. Just for Muslim PP's reference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The whole purity test thing is almost identical to what INS asked my grandmother. INS asked my Cambridge-educated grandmother whether she had ever run a house of prostitution. When she said "no," they let her into the US.

This had nothing to do with voting or other rights, which are granted, or not, via completely separate processes (in the US, the Constitution).

Sounds like the exact same "we don't want that kind" thing was going on in Arabia 1400 years ago, although for women not for men.

Again?? Are you kidding me?? Read Sura Ash Shurra on collective decision making then. Oh, but wait. Thats right, I forgot you can't read the Quran. And you don't know Quranic Arabic either. Maybe you shouldn't be the person interpreting the Quran then. Just a thought.

Actually, that poster asked you for a Quranic reference proving that men pledging allegiance to Muhammad (not voting for him, pledging allegiance) were asked to give the same promises as women. You didn't provide anything. Might that be because there isn't one? Just a thought.

Everything was already explained. Several times. In several ways. That specific details were included for women does not mean similar detailed questioning was not included for men. If similar prohibitions did not apply to men, men should have been freely fornicating to their hearts desire even in front of the Prophet. Instead, clear punishment is prescribed for all fornicators.

It is clear you are ignoring responses simply to try to win an argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't need to seek a scholar because I don't have any misunderstandings about Islam. The fact that I disagree with your claims on what Islam commands doesn't mean I misunderstand it. The fact that you call them misunderstandings means nothing to me. What could possibly make you an arbiter of the right ways to study Islam? Islam wasn't meant to require squadrons of scholars.

The majority of Muslims don't understand Quranic Arabic. Go pick on them.

You weren't actually able to find factual counterarguments to what I posted. You just got mad. It was fun to watch.

Ahhhh, more mockery. Your misunderstanding is based on an inability to read the Quran and lack of understanding of historical context. You will never know this until you speak with a scholar. Members of DCUM who are Muslim know enough to have faith. You need logic and an understanding of Quranic Arabic and history. You'll never know what you don't know without speaking to a true expert.

Different PP here. Please use bold to point out the "mockery of Islam" in the top quote. Thanks!