Sexual orientation vs gender orientation

[Anonymous]

I saw this discussion on another forum and thought to bring it here.

You have a young teen who is gay. He hates being gay, he doesn't want to be gay, he hates himself and who he is and being gay makes him feel suicidal. He doesn't want people to see him as gay so he has a girlfriend and does everything he can to appear straight. He comes to you and tells you he really doesn't want to be gay and wants you to help him become straight. Do you help him find (secular) conversion therapies and other ways to be straight and to pass as straight?

You have a young teen who is a boy. He hates being a boy, he doesn't want to be boy, he hates himself and who he is and being a boy makes him feel suicidal. He doesn't want people to see him as a boy so he dresses as a girl, uses female pronouns and does everything he can to appear as a girl. He come to you and tells you he doesn't want to be a boy and wants you to help him in transitioning to being a girl. Do you help him find transition support and other ways to be a girl and pass as a girl?

The discussion was about these scenarios and whether or not we should support changing one's orientation or whether we should focus on self acceptance of the biological self. It made me take a step back.

[Anonymous]

They are not parallels, except insomuch as people should have bodily/relationship autonomy. Very little evidence that sexual orientation changes but lots of evidence that children with gender dysphoria don't end up transitioning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They are not parallels, except insomuch as people should have bodily/relationship autonomy. Very little evidence that sexual orientation changes but lots of evidence that children with gender dysphoria don't end up transitioning.

For the sake of discussion, doesn't the fact that most children / teens not transition in the end support the parallel? That gender orientation also doesn't really change even though some go through a period where they are very unhappy with who they are?

There are quite a few adults who talk about having changed their sexual orientation. Many of them felt very strongly that they were not meant to be gay (or that being gay was a sin) and they want to be straight and they now live happily as a straight person often after years of work to get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are not parallels, except insomuch as people should have bodily/relationship autonomy. Very little evidence that sexual orientation changes but lots of evidence that children with gender dysphoria don't end up transitioning.

For the sake of discussion, doesn't the fact that most children / teens not transition in the end support the parallel? That gender orientation also doesn't really change even though some go through a period where they are very unhappy with who they are?

There are quite a few adults who talk about having changed their sexual orientation. Many of them felt very strongly that they were not meant to be gay (or that being gay was a sin) and they want to be straight and they now live happily as a straight person often after years of work to get there.

actual research shows that sexual orientation is fairly stable, whereas most kids with gender dysphoria are actually gay (or just don’t conform to societal gender roles). plus medically transitioning is irreversible in some ways.

this is a meaningless though experiment that is trying to strengthen trans issues by connection to gay rights. which is dumb. there are ways they are the same, ways they are different. just because reparative therapy for sexual orientation is evil does not mean that all kids have to be rushed into transition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are not parallels, except insomuch as people should have bodily/relationship autonomy. Very little evidence that sexual orientation changes but lots of evidence that children with gender dysphoria don't end up transitioning.

For the sake of discussion, doesn't the fact that most children / teens not transition in the end support the parallel? That gender orientation also doesn't really change even though some go through a period where they are very unhappy with who they are?

There are quite a few adults who talk about having changed their sexual orientation. Many of them felt very strongly that they were not meant to be gay (or that being gay was a sin) and they want to be straight and they now live happily as a straight person often after years of work to get there.

actual research shows that sexual orientation is fairly stable, whereas most kids with gender dysphoria are actually gay (or just don’t conform to societal gender roles). plus medically transitioning is irreversible in some ways.

this is a meaningless though experiment that is trying to strengthen trans issues by connection to gay rights. which is dumb. there are ways they are the same, ways they are different. just because reparative therapy for sexual orientation is evil does not mean that all kids have to be rushed into transition.

I think the parallel being implied is more that we shouldn't rush into / support transitioning gender identity any more than we should rush into / support transitioning sexual orientation. I saw an article posted that the ex gay movement and the ex transgender movement have now teamed up to be one movement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I saw this discussion on another forum and thought to bring it here.

You have a young teen who is gay. He hates being gay, he doesn't want to be gay, he hates himself and who he is and being gay makes him feel suicidal. He doesn't want people to see him as gay so he has a girlfriend and does everything he can to appear straight. He comes to you and tells you he really doesn't want to be gay and wants you to help him become straight. Do you help him find (secular) conversion therapies and other ways to be straight and to pass as straight?

You have a young teen who is a boy. He hates being a boy, he doesn't want to be boy, he hates himself and who he is and being a boy makes him feel suicidal. He doesn't want people to see him as a boy so he dresses as a girl, uses female pronouns and does everything he can to appear as a girl. He come to you and tells you he doesn't want to be a boy and wants you to help him in transitioning to being a girl. Do you help him find transition support and other ways to be a girl and pass as a girl?

The discussion was about these scenarios and whether or not we should support changing one's orientation or whether we should focus on self acceptance of the biological self. It made me take a step back.

I think we should help each kid become their happiest and most authentic self. For some that will mean a transition. For others it won't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are not parallels, except insomuch as people should have bodily/relationship autonomy. Very little evidence that sexual orientation changes but lots of evidence that children with gender dysphoria don't end up transitioning.

For the sake of discussion, doesn't the fact that most children / teens not transition in the end support the parallel? That gender orientation also doesn't really change even though some go through a period where they are very unhappy with who they are?

There are quite a few adults who talk about having changed their sexual orientation. Many of them felt very strongly that they were not meant to be gay (or that being gay was a sin) and they want to be straight and they now live happily as a straight person often after years of work to get there.

actual research shows that sexual orientation is fairly stable, whereas most kids with gender dysphoria are actually gay (or just don’t conform to societal gender roles). plus medically transitioning is irreversible in some ways.

this is a meaningless though experiment that is trying to strengthen trans issues by connection to gay rights. which is dumb. there are ways they are the same, ways they are different. just because reparative therapy for sexual orientation is evil does not mean that all kids have to be rushed into transition.

I think the parallel being implied is more that we shouldn't rush into / support transitioning gender identity any more than we should rush into / support transitioning sexual orientation. I saw an article posted that the ex gay movement and the ex transgender movement have now teamed up to be one movement.

huh? No. I haven't seen that anywhere. What I've seen is people who de-transition but by and large think that it wasn't right for THEM, not that it it's not right for anyone. The only similarity to me here is the question of bodily autonomy and acceptance. Nobody should face coercive methods to get them to change their way of being -- and that includes pressure on kids to transition before they are really ready to, AS WELL AS discrimination against transgender people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I saw this discussion on another forum and thought to bring it here.

You have a young teen who is gay. He hates being gay, he doesn't want to be gay, he hates himself and who he is and being gay makes him feel suicidal. He doesn't want people to see him as gay so he has a girlfriend and does everything he can to appear straight. He comes to you and tells you he really doesn't want to be gay and wants you to help him become straight. Do you help him find (secular) conversion therapies and other ways to be straight and to pass as straight?

You have a young teen who is a boy. He hates being a boy, he doesn't want to be boy, he hates himself and who he is and being a boy makes him feel suicidal. He doesn't want people to see him as a boy so he dresses as a girl, uses female pronouns and does everything he can to appear as a girl. He come to you and tells you he doesn't want to be a boy and wants you to help him in transitioning to being a girl. Do you help him find transition support and other ways to be a girl and pass as a girl?

The discussion was about these scenarios and whether or not we should support changing one's orientation or whether we should focus on self acceptance of the biological self. It made me take a step back.

I think we should help each kid become their happiest and most authentic self. For some that will mean a transition. For others it won't.

I agree.

Some people can cover up who they are and be successful and happy. Many can’t. For anyone questioning such deep, personal issues, I’d be encouraging therapy to work through how deep those feelings run, what the consequences of not being true to yourself are, and why there’s so much self loathing.