Biden wants RTO

[Anonymous]

Something that has really become clear is that there's a rift between local remote workers and hybrid workers. Local remote workers get paid to come into the office for meetings, can come in when they want, aren't required to do anything. I think remote workers who live locally are just creating a lot of jealousy. If you want to be remote- why are you coming into the office!? You don't think the rest of us just want to come into the office for fun stuff?

And there is also a growing perspective that remote workers aren't as helpful as everyone else. They aren't having to do any of the networking, none of the training of interns, they don't welcome new people to the office and they're hard to get ahold of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

This is why the wfh forever folks sound so silly, telling an adult to return to the office where they worked for years is not the same as child labor, although you do sound like a child when you make such comparisons

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

Don't assume Govt will try to put it back. Getting a new one is always an option (i.e., let those who want to leave, leave).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

Houses I was looking at for 400k three years ago are now going for 700k. Federal employee pay has not increased 75%.

Most people don’t pay cash for a house. The relevant difference is the monthly payment on a 30-year mortgage of $400k vs. $700k. And, look at dollar, not percent, increase. If a stick of gum goes from 5 cents to 10, that’s a 100% increase, but it doesn’t mean your salary needs to double to afford gum.

Good thing interest rates haven't gone up! This is the dumbest post. Honestly. Going from a payment on 400k at 2.5% to 700k at 7% is way more than a 75% increase, and far far more in dollars than any fed salary increase in that time. Do the math. Don't be lazy.

That's the reason you don't want to go back in the office? Why not find another job??

My point is that it's not all people who worked in the same offices before covid not wanting to come back. I am trying to hire right now. We get more and better applications for remote jobs already. Our salaries are not sustainable for people to live a reasonable distance from work. Telework helps us attract well qualified people who can't move their families, whose partners have jobs in Richmond or Baltimore, etc. Why do you think this isn't a barrier?

+1. Salaries and cost of living in the DC area are a major impact to hiring qualified employees. It’s not just to get a house in North Arlington. It’s $900k+ for a decent house in Burke, which is still going to give you a 45-60 minute commute!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

At least one poster is honest. They want WFH because they like it. Period. They like it. All the other arguments are excuses for this real one. Now, why do they like it? That’s another can of worms. Believe me, it’s not about productivity.

I'm the PP. I can tell you why I like it. Flexibility, lack of office politics, no commute, can have lunch with my kid at her school over my own lunch break, can make my own lunch at home, can take a 10 min break to walk the dog...still get all my work done with excellence, advising my clients and serving my country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

Houses I was looking at for 400k three years ago are now going for 700k. Federal employee pay has not increased 75%.

Most people don’t pay cash for a house. The relevant difference is the monthly payment on a 30-year mortgage of $400k vs. $700k. And, look at dollar, not percent, increase. If a stick of gum goes from 5 cents to 10, that’s a 100% increase, but it doesn’t mean your salary needs to double to afford gum.

Good thing interest rates haven't gone up! This is the dumbest post. Honestly. Going from a payment on 400k at 2.5% to 700k at 7% is way more than a 75% increase, and far far more in dollars than any fed salary increase in that time. Do the math. Don't be lazy.

That's the reason you don't want to go back in the office? Why not find another job??

My point is that it's not all people who worked in the same offices before covid not wanting to come back. I am trying to hire right now. We get more and better applications for remote jobs already. Our salaries are not sustainable for people to live a reasonable distance from work. Telework helps us attract well qualified people who can't move their families, whose partners have jobs in Richmond or Baltimore, etc. Why do you think this isn't a barrier?

+1. Salaries and cost of living in the DC area are a major impact to hiring qualified employees. It’s not just to get a house in North Arlington. It’s $900k+ for a decent house in Burke, which is still going to give you a 45-60 minute commute!

That’s true in most cities, even secondary and tertiary ones. I have friends in Nashville and the home prices and commutes suck. It’s not just a DC problem. What people really want is a big city salary with a no-time, no-cost commute and big house in the LCOL burbs or random other city.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

Don't assume Govt will try to put it back. Getting a new one is always an option (i.e., let those who want to leave, leave).

Problem with that is the number of people who like to WFH. Sure there will be efforts to RTO, but I believe over the long term they will all fizzle. Because sooner or later people rebel, find ways to make exceptions, change policies, etc. It's human nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

At least one poster is honest. They want WFH because they like it. Period. They like it. All the other arguments are excuses for this real one. Now, why do they like it? That’s another can of worms. Believe me, it’s not about productivity.

I'm the PP. I can tell you why I like it. Flexibility, lack of office politics, no commute, can have lunch with my kid at her school over my own lunch break, can make my own lunch at home, can take a 10 min break to walk the dog...still get all my work done with excellence, advising my clients and serving my country.

Great! Would you be willing to take a 20% paycut so that your in-office peers clear the same money you do with all that convenience and lower cost?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

At least one poster is honest. They want WFH because they like it. Period. They like it. All the other arguments are excuses for this real one. Now, why do they like it? That’s another can of worms. Believe me, it’s not about productivity.

I'm the PP. I can tell you why I like it. Flexibility, lack of office politics, no commute, can have lunch with my kid at her school over my own lunch break, can make my own lunch at home, can take a 10 min break to walk the dog...still get all my work done with excellence, advising my clients and serving my country.

Great! Would you be willing to take a 20% paycut so that your in-office peers clear the same money you do with all that convenience and lower cost?

Should my in-office peers who are a generation or two older and were able to buy homes 15 minutes away take a pay cut so that I clear the same money they do with my higher housing and salary cost? No, you think they earned it based on their actual experience and qualifications? Hmm, interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

At least one poster is honest. They want WFH because they like it. Period. They like it. All the other arguments are excuses for this real one. Now, why do they like it? That’s another can of worms. Believe me, it’s not about productivity.

I'm the PP. I can tell you why I like it. Flexibility, lack of office politics, no commute, can have lunch with my kid at her school over my own lunch break, can make my own lunch at home, can take a 10 min break to walk the dog...still get all my work done with excellence, advising my clients and serving my country.

Great! Would you be willing to take a 20% paycut so that your in-office peers clear the same money you do with all that convenience and lower cost?

Should my in-office peers who are a generation or two older and were able to buy homes 15 minutes away take a pay cut so that I clear the same money they do with my higher housing and salary cost? No, you think they earned it based on their actual experience and qualifications? Hmm, interesting.

Sorry, "salary cost" should be "commuting cost," because I have to commute 5x as far to live in a smaller house with worse schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

Many people have changed jobs in the last 3 years. For example, a year ago I moved to the federal government, accepting a role that had me come in twice a pay period. When interviewing for this role I was told that the team planned on staying hybrid and did not plan to increase the days in the office.

So, if one was to point out that the team I joined was 5 days in the office pre-pandemic and why is that intolerable now when we all used to do it? Well, I wasn't in this role back then, and neither were many of the people who joined my agency in the past 3 years. So it's not a "return" for any of us, but a big change.

Yes, but what were the in-office standards at your old job? The fact is that you snagged an unusually good accommodation DURING A NATIONAL CRISIS THAT HAS PASSED, but you want to keep that accommodation forever. It’s like getting a temporary disability accommodation and expecting to keep it after you’re fine. I get it: you have a good thing and want to keep it. But, don’t play the “I’ve been duped. It’s unfair” card. You sound silly.

I was fully remote at my previous position. Was there over a decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

Don't assume Govt will try to put it back. Getting a new one is always an option (i.e., let those who want to leave, leave).

Problem with that is the number of people who like to WFH. Sure there will be efforts to RTO, but I believe over the long term they will all fizzle. Because sooner or later people rebel, find ways to make exceptions, change policies, etc. It's human nature.

Why is that a problem? The number that matters is the number of people who leave. For every 100 WFH "I'm gonna leave if you make me come back", I doubt more than 10 would actually leave. Govt is a big system. It will chugging along with or without those 10 folks. And others will love to join even then

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

At least one poster is honest. They want WFH because they like it. Period. They like it. All the other arguments are excuses for this real one. Now, why do they like it? That’s another can of worms. Believe me, it’s not about productivity.

I'm the PP. I can tell you why I like it. Flexibility, lack of office politics, no commute, can have lunch with my kid at her school over my own lunch break, can make my own lunch at home, can take a 10 min break to walk the dog...still get all my work done with excellence, advising my clients and serving my country.

Great! Would you be willing to take a 20% paycut so that your in-office peers clear the same money you do with all that convenience and lower cost?

Now wait a second. I am using my own computer at home, which I have to upgrade regularly and I probably wouldnt even have a computer without working from home and I certainly would not upgrade it because of wear and tear. I have to pay for virus protection and upgraded internet. I have to use my cell phone for work and its a separate app that transfers my call from my office line to my cell phone. I pay for the desk, chair, printer, papers, pens, multiple monitors, etc. There's no workers comp coverage for me if I fall or slip or X happens at work because I am not in the building and therefore a liability. There's more continuity with coverage since I dont have to take off a whole day for school or daycare being closed or late opening or early dismissal. I am not late for meetings due to traffic. I can continue working through any early closures due to rain, snow, etc. I am not drinking coffee or using the fridges or have every appliance/tablet/phone plugged in with lights on all day long. Lets not even discuss long-term insurance costs for remote vs office workers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:RTO is going to cause some agencies to hemorrhage decent young-ish employees. One day a week already led to us losing a few attorneys for the private sector. They can’t afford to live close in and as soon as they have kids they can’t manage a commute that’s an hour plus. I’m in a weird boat where my spouse makes a lot of money so we live close in but has garbage health insurance which doesn’t work because one of our kids is SN.

+1. Some of the posters are delusional about how much it costs to live reasonably close in with kids, where there is access to safe public schools and housing. I bought my house in 2013 and prices have since skyrocketed, and I still had nearly an hour commute downtown from within Fairfax County. Why would I want to spend nearly 1.5 - 2 hours a day commuting when I could spend that time with my family, driving kids to activities, exercising, cooking a healthy meal, etc. Life is too short to waste it in a car to spend 8 hours in the office on Teams meetings. Furthermore, I am a Federal manager and most of my younger, hard-working staff all want telework - for the exact reasons I do, so they can balance their careers and home life. I don’t want to lose them and I certainly don’t want to force them in the office more. Our work is computer based and can be completed effectively from home. I also have staff more willing to work on an issue later in the day or earlier in the morning when they’re home. Staff is flexible and more engaged in the work because they have a manager who is flexible regarding where they do the work. For computer based work, RTO is not the answer. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s not going back.

I understand but has this all changed dramatically in the last 3 years since the pandemic started? My whole office used to commute 4 days a week deal with traffic or public transportation, figure out kids activities, etc and now just doing what they used to do is intolerable? I get that we had a few years with more flexibility but we're being asked to do what everyone did for decades and suddenly that's too hard and everyone will quit?

No, it’s that in the past three years, people discovered that by working from home, we can balance work and family demands much more easily. We used to also have no child labor laws. Should we go back to that?

And why should govt care about that? It's your personal choice/life isn't it?

NP. Because it's like putting toothpaste back in the tube. No one who enjoys it is willingly or for long going to give up that newfound flexibility now that they know it is possible. So basically you have a critical mass of people in every white collar industry who don't want to go back to the office. Most RTO efforts have fizzled out after a few weeks or months. I think that is likely to continue, because there are just so many people who like WFH. It's just the way it's going to be. Do not stand against the wind...

At least one poster is honest. They want WFH because they like it. Period. They like it. All the other arguments are excuses for this real one. Now, why do they like it? That’s another can of worms. Believe me, it’s not about productivity.

I'm the PP. I can tell you why I like it. Flexibility, lack of office politics, no commute, can have lunch with my kid at her school over my own lunch break, can make my own lunch at home, can take a 10 min break to walk the dog...still get all my work done with excellence, advising my clients and serving my country.

Great! Would you be willing to take a 20% paycut so that your in-office peers clear the same money you do with all that convenience and lower cost?

Now wait a second. I am using my own computer at home, which I have to upgrade regularly and I probably wouldnt even have a computer without working from home and I certainly would not upgrade it because of wear and tear. I have to pay for virus protection and upgraded internet. I have to use my cell phone for work and its a separate app that transfers my call from my office line to my cell phone. I pay for the desk, chair, printer, papers, pens, multiple monitors, etc. There's no workers comp coverage for me if I fall or slip or X happens at work because I am not in the building and therefore a liability. There's more continuity with coverage since I dont have to take off a whole day for school or daycare being closed or late opening or early dismissal. I am not late for meetings due to traffic. I can continue working through any early closures due to rain, snow, etc. I am not drinking coffee or using the fridges or have every appliance/tablet/phone plugged in with lights on all day long. Lets not even discuss long-term insurance costs for remote vs office workers.

I am using my own computer at home, which I have to upgrade regularly and I probably wouldnt even have a computer without working from home and I certainly would not upgrade it because of wear and tear. I have to pay for virus protection and upgraded internet. I don't believe you are a fed! What agency? We are not allowed to use our own computers or our own virus protection.

I have to use my cell phone for work and its a separate app that transfers my call from my office line to my cell phone. We aren't supposed to be using cell phones. We use VOIP that work pays for.

I pay for the desk, chair, printer, papers, pens, multiple monitors, etc. Work provides a monitor. If you like to print stuff nonstop, then yes, that's on you. My entire agency has banned outside printers from connecting to agency computers, so I'm not sure how you're printing?

There's no workers comp coverage for me if I fall or slip or X happens at work because I am not in the building and therefore a liability. You're wrong. You can be eligible for workers comp. It says so in our Remote work FAQs

[Anonymous]

We have a week left in August. If RTO was actually a thing for us this thread would be erupting by now. RTO ain’t a thing folks.