Algebra in 9th

[Anonymous]

Can you tell me about your student who took Algebra in 9th? My daughter is in regular Math 7 in FCPS and so would be on track to take algebra in 9th. She does fine in math but is not advanced. Gets a solid pass on the SOL. Did anyone skip right from Math 7 to algebra in 8th? Looking for experience from those who have either skipped to algebra or waited until 9th - which seems like she will be "behind."

[Anonymous]

How critical is it that she be admitted to any particular VA college? Is that a huge concern for you? I have a different answer, depending on how you answer that question.

She needs to be on pace with her peers, her peers at her particular school. Your school counselor is better to suggest what that is.

If you are willing to have her go out of state to college, to not one of the most selective colleges, or attend a Va public which is not, generally considered, say the top 4, she will have many choices.

Having a solid footing in math has it's advantages. Those advantages may not show up until college. Whatever pace she needs to achieve a solid foundation, is the best pace.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How critical is it that she be admitted to any particular VA college? Is that a huge concern for you? I have a different answer, depending on how you answer that question.

She needs to be on pace with her peers, her peers at her particular school. Your school counselor is better to suggest what that is.

If you are willing to have her go out of state to college, to not one of the most selective colleges, or attend a Va public which is not, generally considered, say the top 4, she will have many choices.

Having a solid footing in math has it's advantages. Those advantages may not show up until college. Whatever pace she needs to achieve a solid foundation, is the best pace.

"Having a solid footing in math" comes from your child having self-confidence, not hating math, and being reasonably - not overly- challenged. And all that is more important than what the counselor advises for possible college or career preferences 4 years from now. If she eventually comes to pursuing an engineering or other science or mathematical career path, she will be better off having studied at an appropriate pace for her ability and interest. If she is not that advanced, then it's even more important to have a solid foundation and mastery and not skip levels or move too quickly for her to develop that solid mastery and understanding.

Do what's best for your daughter, not for YOUR plans for where she goes to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How critical is it that she be admitted to any particular VA college? Is that a huge concern for you? I have a different answer, depending on how you answer that question.

She needs to be on pace with her peers, her peers at her particular school. Your school counselor is better to suggest what that is.

If you are willing to have her go out of state to college, to not one of the most selective colleges, or attend a Va public which is not, generally considered, say the top 4, she will have many choices.

Having a solid footing in math has it's advantages. Those advantages may not show up until college. Whatever pace she needs to achieve a solid foundation, is the best pace.

"Having a solid footing in math" comes from your child having self-confidence, not hating math, and being reasonably - not overly- challenged. And all that is more important than what the counselor advises for possible college or career preferences 4 years from now. If she eventually comes to pursuing an engineering or other science or mathematical career path, she will be better off having studied at an appropriate pace for her ability and interest. If she is not that advanced, then it's even more important to have a solid foundation and mastery and not skip levels or move too quickly for her to develop that solid mastery and understanding.

Do what's best for your daughter, not for YOUR plans for where she goes to college.

This. Plenty of college math majors were on a "regular" or grade-level" track in high school.

[Anonymous]

I'm confused also. I have a 6th grader who does great in math but it isn't her favorite thing so we've kept her in Gen Ed math for elementary, and would be fine with reg Math 7 next year.

Reading the middle school course catalog, the descriptions for Math 7 and Math 7H both say they prepare for Algebra 1, and both are listed as acceptable pre-reqs under Algebra 1 and Algebra 1 HN. It seems like going from regular Math 7 to Algebra would be skipping something, yet most FCPS 8th graders take it. So maybe regular Math 8 is a lot of repeat of Math 7? Hopefully someone can weigh in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused also. I have a 6th grader who does great in math but it isn't her favorite thing so we've kept her in Gen Ed math for elementary, and would be fine with reg Math 7 next year.

Reading the middle school course catalog, the descriptions for Math 7 and Math 7H both say they prepare for Algebra 1, and both are listed as acceptable pre-reqs under Algebra 1 and Algebra 1 HN. It seems like going from regular Math 7 to Algebra would be skipping something, yet most FCPS 8th graders take it. So maybe regular Math 8 is a lot of repeat of Math 7? Hopefully someone can weigh in.

I'm in Arlington and we have the 6-8 middle school model; but Arlington revised its middle school pathways last year so that fewer students would be in the most advanced track and, so we were told, taking Algebra before high school. The problem has been an insufficiently solid foundation and students struggling and falling off the advanced path in high school. So for reasons unexplained, the two Math 6 options became math 6 and a math 6-7-8 course.

Technically, students don't skip material. It's more likely that they move through it much faster and therefore do not have as much time to master individual topics or to get as much practice and understanding before moving on. So now Arlington has Math 6 students that they are pushing back into essentially the old advanced pathway with a combined Math 7-8 class in 7th. There has been no explained theory as to why this resolves the original problem, and since this is only the first year of the new pathway there is absolutely no data to demonstrate if it continues the same problems.

I'm not a professional; but I'm a firm believer that it's better to have an easier go at math and have confidence in one's math ability than to push too hard and turn students further away from enjoying, liking, or even tolerating math.

[Anonymous]

I have one who did algebra in 8th and was fine to continue the track into high school. My other one didn’t do as well and we chose to retake in 9th and expunge the 8th grade from record. I would rather they do well in regular classes at grade level than do not so well but be “ahead.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused also. I have a 6th grader who does great in math but it isn't her favorite thing so we've kept her in Gen Ed math for elementary, and would be fine with reg Math 7 next year.

Reading the middle school course catalog, the descriptions for Math 7 and Math 7H both say they prepare for Algebra 1, and both are listed as acceptable pre-reqs under Algebra 1 and Algebra 1 HN. It seems like going from regular Math 7 to Algebra would be skipping something, yet most FCPS 8th graders take it. So maybe regular Math 8 is a lot of repeat of Math 7? Hopefully someone can weigh in.

I'm in Arlington and we have the 6-8 middle school model; but Arlington revised its middle school pathways last year so that fewer students would be in the most advanced track and, so we were told, taking Algebra before high school. The problem has been an insufficiently solid foundation and students struggling and falling off the advanced path in high school. So for reasons unexplained, the two Math 6 options became math 6 and a math 6-7-8 course.

Technically, students don't skip material. It's more likely that they move through it much faster and therefore do not have as much time to master individual topics or to get as much practice and understanding before moving on. So now Arlington has Math 6 students that they are pushing back into essentially the old advanced pathway with a combined Math 7-8 class in 7th. There has been no explained theory as to why this resolves the original problem, and since this is only the first year of the new pathway there is absolutely no data to demonstrate if it continues the same problems.

I'm not a professional; but I'm a firm believer that it's better to have an easier go at math and have confidence in one's math ability than to push too hard and turn students further away from enjoying, liking, or even tolerating math.

The bolded coupled with some notoriously bad MS math teachers. My kid and several of his friends were very advanced heading into MS and the instruction for 2 solid years was plain awful. Watching videos while math teachers knitted during class. I can honestly say he regressed and I had not idea as he was getting As when he was telling me how bad it was and how the kids didn't understand anything. IT took a bunch of them not doing very well on the Algebra year Final to make most parents realize repeating Algebra in 8th and hoping for new/different teachers was the best. Pushing ahead into Intensified Geometry with such a shitty base would spell disaster down the road. I am a STEM professional with a graduate degree---and, TRUST ME, nobody was taking sophomore level Multivariable Calculus Junior year in college which is what APS' path is. In fact, their data shows kids on that path ended up doing worse overall and only 70 kids total completed that path. If you know how enormous APS MS/HS population is--you would realize what a tiny percentage that is.

I have some friends winging it. Their kids needed tutors in 7th just to hang in Algebra---but most of these kids just want to get the math out of the way because they don't want to pursue STEM careers and don't want to have to take the Math in HS. The parents I know that are STEM oriented---engineers, biologists, Doctors, etc., are more concerned about a SOLID math foundation before pushing ahead because they know how bad it is to have a shaky foundation in those fields. Math builds. It's like having sand for a house foundation if you move on before you are proficient. Again, THE GRADE, does not determine the proficiency level---when quizzed later they retained nothing.

[Anonymous]

Just for reference, OP. About 75% of white kids, 80% of asian kids, and something like 68% of ALL FCPS kids take Algebra in 8th grade or before.

It is VERY common for kids to go from reg. 7th grade math to Alg I in 8th grade. Or, kids take Math 7 hons (which is 8th grade math) and then go to Alg. I (or Alg I hons) in 8th.

This is from documents that FCPS posts in their board docs -- I may be slightly off on the exact percentages, (i.e. is is 76% or 75%? I don't remember).

So, you decide -- is your kid in the bottom 25-30%? If so, then wait until 9th grade. My DD was not a strong math kid. But, she took Alg. I in 8th and got a B, I think. She did the same with Geom. in 9th.

If your child can get a B in math 7, I think it is worth going to Alg. in 8th grade. Of course, there is no requirement that you do. If you are a little unsure, I'd recommend asking your child's counselor to put her in the Alg. section that meets everyday for a shorter period (45 min. every day rather than a block that is 90 min. every other day). That way, a kid who is not fast at math can take it in smaller doses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just for reference, OP. About 75% of white kids, 80% of asian kids, and something like 68% of ALL FCPS kids take Algebra in 8th grade or before.

It is VERY common for kids to go from reg. 7th grade math to Alg I in 8th grade. Or, kids take Math 7 hons (which is 8th grade math) and then go to Alg. I (or Alg I hons) in 8th.

This is from documents that FCPS posts in their board docs -- I may be slightly off on the exact percentages, (i.e. is is 76% or 75%? I don't remember).

So, you decide -- is your kid in the bottom 25-30%? If so, then wait until 9th grade. My DD was not a strong math kid. But, she took Alg. I in 8th and got a B, I think. She did the same with Geom. in 9th.

If your child can get a B in math 7, I think it is worth going to Alg. in 8th grade. Of course, there is no requirement that you do. If you are a little unsure, I'd recommend asking your child's counselor to put her in the Alg. section that meets everyday for a shorter period (45 min. every day rather than a block that is 90 min. every other day). That way, a kid who is not fast at math can take it in smaller doses.

My kid got a B in intensified Algebra 1 in 7th, but had no understanding of it at the end of the year. Kid will repeat Intensified Algebra in 8th.

Again, you need to dig further and see what the real understanding is. My kid's math department said he knew enough to push into Intensified Geometry. Ha! He did not understand most of the summer math pack review. I think APS wanted the numbers to look better because so many kids were falling off the track so they were telling more kids they were prepared for the next level when they actually weren't. Our 5th grade recommended very few kids for the new 6/7/8 math---even high scorers/GT kids are doing Math 6 this year. Knowing what I know and watching it, that is the better math for 99% of kids (minus the very few true math wizards---and there are far fewer than are labeled that way).

[Anonymous]

I'm glad APS has slowed down the math sequence. Their placement process also had no rhyme or reason. My DS is now a junior. Math has always been his stand-out strength, pulled out for more advanced work from kindergarten on, always pass-advanced on the SOLs. When we got his initial MS math placement it was for 6th grade math, which surprised me. So, we asked the counselor about it and there was no feedback about how the decision was made or how the classes differed, they just immediately switched him on my say-so. I got the sense they'd just do that for any parent, justified or not. That's how you end up with so many kids needing a tutor to get through it. IMO, if your 7th grader needs a tutor to handle Algebra they should slow it down and take it later.

For DS, it was the right decision and he actually handled the prior accelerated sequence just fine. However, in HS has opted to slow down calculus and take both AB and BC for a more solid foundation because he wants to major in math. His precalculus teacher said that was what they recommended for most students. So there may be multiple factors contributing to so few of the current cohort getting to post-calculus math in HS -- the struggles from too early/too fast pace plus the HS math teachers making their own judgement to slow it down at the higher levels.

My DD, now a freshman, also did the sequence with Intensified Geometry in 8th and did well in it but I'll be keeping an eye on the freshman Intensified Algebra 2/Trig class with her. My son thought it was "easy" but she's always had to work harder to get math than he did. She wanted to take it but I'd be happy to drop her down to the regular Algebra 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm glad APS has slowed down the math sequence. Their placement process also had no rhyme or reason. My DS is now a junior. Math has always been his stand-out strength, pulled out for more advanced work from kindergarten on, always pass-advanced on the SOLs. When we got his initial MS math placement it was for 6th grade math, which surprised me. So, we asked the counselor about it and there was no feedback about how the decision was made or how the classes differed, they just immediately switched him on my say-so. I got the sense they'd just do that for any parent, justified or not. That's how you end up with so many kids needing a tutor to get through it. IMO, if your 7th grader needs a tutor to handle Algebra they should slow it down and take it later.

For DS, it was the right decision and he actually handled the prior accelerated sequence just fine. However, in HS has opted to slow down calculus and take both AB and BC for a more solid foundation because he wants to major in math. His precalculus teacher said that was what they recommended for most students. So there may be multiple factors contributing to so few of the current cohort getting to post-calculus math in HS -- the struggles from too early/too fast pace plus the HS math teachers making their own judgement to slow it down at the higher levels.

My DD, now a freshman, also did the sequence with Intensified Geometry in 8th and did well in it but I'll be keeping an eye on the freshman Intensified Algebra 2/Trig class with her. My son thought it was "easy" but she's always had to work harder to get math than he did. She wanted to take it but I'd be happy to drop her down to the regular Algebra 2.

Yes. I was surprised to hear how many 7th graders had tutors for Algebra I in 7th. I am of the same vein--if you need a tutor to stay accelerated/keep up with material, then you don't belong in the advanced class. There is nothing wrong with that. It has become quite the status thing to tutor and khan academy up and then brag that the kid is advanced. Stupid me. My kid worked his butt off w/out a tutor while all of his friends I later round out had tutors. I put him on a slower pace next year because I don't hire tutors to get ahead. Tutors are when a kid is struggling ---not to say kid is advanced.

[Anonymous]

My daughter took Algebra in 9th, then took Geometry over the summer at Madeira. That put her back on track and she took AP Cal as a senior. The reality is that the more Algebra you take the better for learning math, but not for college admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused also. I have a 6th grader who does great in math but it isn't her favorite thing so we've kept her in Gen Ed math for elementary, and would be fine with reg Math 7 next year.

Reading the middle school course catalog, the descriptions for Math 7 and Math 7H both say they prepare for Algebra 1, and both are listed as acceptable pre-reqs under Algebra 1 and Algebra 1 HN. It seems like going from regular Math 7 to Algebra would be skipping something, yet most FCPS 8th graders take it. So maybe regular Math 8 is a lot of repeat of Math 7? Hopefully someone can weigh in.

Math 7 honors is the same as 8th gr math taken during 7th gr.

Math 7 is 7th gr math.

Going from math 7 in 7th to algebra in 8th is skipping 8th grade math, similar to taking algebra in 7th (for example - where they then skip 8th grade math after having taken 7th gr math in 6th grade aap).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My daughter took Algebra in 9th, then took Geometry over the summer at Madeira. That put her back on track and she took AP Cal as a senior. The reality is that the more Algebra you take the better for learning math, but not for college admissions.

This is what my 9th grader is planning on doing. He took Algebra 1 in 7th and 8th grades but didn't do well enough on the math placement test to test out of Algebra 1 in 9th grade.