odds of death from h1n1 vs. vaccine

[Anonymous]

I am assuming it is more likely from the flu - so why would people NOT get their kids vaccinated? Not debating, just curious.

[Anonymous]

penguinsix wrote:No one really can compute the odds of death from the flu since we don't really know how many people actually have had it. We can calculate odds of death vs. say the number of people who have been hospitalized, as both of these are reportable acts, but even then you have a situation where something are put down as cause of death 'pneumonia' when the underlying issue was H1N1. Which do they report? It's like deaths in a blizzard--most are actually heart attacks from shoveling snow, so are they dead by the blizzard or dead by a heart attack?

There have been far more deaths from the flu than there have been from the vaccine. I have not heard of a confirmed death by vaccine but there are always people who die after taking the vaccine (i.e. people die every single day). People die after going to the bathroom but you don't say they were killed by going to the toilet, but when people die a day or so after getting the vaccine your first gut reaction is to look for a connection. Will someone die from the vaccine or a reaction? Probably. But again it's a risk balance. XXX die from the flu v. X from the vaccine. You play the odds.

As for the list you have a long and seemingly endless list:

Ingredients in the flu shots
I'm healthy already
I don't put foreign things in my body
Vaccines cause autism
Vaccines cause GBS
Vaccines cause hives
The vaccine is new
The vaccine isn't tested.
The vaccine isn't tested enough.
The vaccine isn't tested over 10 years
The vaccine isn't tested over 20 years
The vaccine isn't tested over 30 years.
My best friends sisters boyfriends brothers girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid whos going with the girl who saw (someone who had the vaccine) pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess its pretty serious.
Vaccines are cheating God's will.
I live a natural organic life
I don't believe the government
I don't believe corporations
I don't believe science
I studied at the University of Google
I don't want it
There is no spoon...umm flu.
I'm too busy.

Like I said, it's a bit endless. But hey, it's a free country. They don't want it they don't get it, no big deal for now.

Penguinsix -- you're getting more sarcastic -- I love it! Fitting into the site better.

[Anonymous]

Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

Wait a second. In defense of penguinsix, he was giving a laundry list of all the reasons we have heard - on this very forum, on other parenting listservs, on news man-on-the-street interviews. Some are legit, some aren't. He included both. You cannot deny some people's reasons are not based on science and reason. Some are frankly, wrong. He did not imply EVERY person refusing the vaccine googled it. But if you spend some time on this forum, you will see some of this is true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

Wait a second. In defense of penguinsix, he was giving a laundry list of all the reasons we have heard - on this very forum, on other parenting listservs, on news man-on-the-street interviews. Some are legit, some aren't. He included both. You cannot deny some people's reasons are not based on science and reason. Some are frankly, wrong. He did not imply EVERY person refusing the vaccine googled it. But if you spend some time on this forum, you will see some of this is true.

Totally agreed.

[Anonymous]

Penguinsix, you forgot the good reason a co worker gave me the other day. H1n1 vaccine is a government plot to sterilize us all. She read it on the internet.

She is a smart, educated, accomplished professional woman. And that is what she said to me.

!!!

[Anonymous]

I did a back of the envelope calculation at the beginning of this flu season, and this is what I came up with:

Claims filed with the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program since 1989 with a claim of death from Influenza Vaccine: 22 (note: I do not know how many of these claims were accepted)

My estimate of the number of influenza shots given in the U.S. since 1989 1.2 billion

Therefore my estimate of the odds of death from an influenza vaccine (assuming this is no more or less dangerous than the other years' vaccines) = 1.8 x 10-8, or 1 in 54 million.

As for the odds of death from H1N1, take whatever number you believe to be the estimate of the number who will die and divide by 305 million people. Pre-season, the white house was using numbers of around 30,000 (seasonal flu average) to 90,000 (I think) but the number of reported deaths so far is a lot less than that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

PenguinSix listed a pretty full list of reasons that have been used on this site. If your reason did not show up, the best thing you can do is to provide yours. But if there are people who believe what you do for reasons that you consider to be wacky, that's not his fault. It's just a fact that some people have come to agree with your position through reasons that you may find unintelligent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

Did you vaccinate? Why or why not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

I posted this. No one has answered this question, so I will: some people are not 100% confident in their decision, so they need to make people who have made a different one look uneducated, lunatic, or paranoid. If that's what you need to do to not obsess about it or second-guess your decision to have gotten it, go ahead. I have no need to do it. I come to this forum as one more place of getting updated information and perspectives. I clicked on this post originally because I thought it might contain a link to something worth reading or perhaps some valuable information; I am fully aware that I do not know everything.

[Anonymous]

so did you vaccinate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

I posted this. No one has answered this question, so I will: some people are not 100% confident in their decision, so they need to make people who have made a different one look uneducated, lunatic, or paranoid. If that's what you need to do to not obsess about it or second-guess your decision to have gotten it, go ahead. I have no need to do it. I come to this forum as one more place of getting updated information and perspectives. I clicked on this post originally because I thought it might contain a link to something worth reading or perhaps some valuable information; I am fully aware that I do not know everything.

I think someone can be very confident in the decision - either for or against - and still think that some of the reasoning on this site is wacky.

FWIW I think that someone who judges others' opinions and yet refuses to share her own reasoning is either unconfident or unwilling to contribute constructively. Once again, if you have good reasons, share them so that others may be persuaded by your opinion.

[Anonymous]

But he was only answering the question - why don't some vaccinate? And he gave a correct, accurate response. Some reasons that have been stated on this forum and others are sound, some are not. You can't just pick the few he listed that sound idiotic and accuse people of being defensive.

I know some parents who are not vaccinating simply because they both work and don't want to give up a Saturday standing in line in a clinic to get a shot for a disease that they don't think will be a big deal. Hard to argue with that logic. Sounds good to me.

I also have a mom on my neighborhood list serv who is convinced her child will get gulf war syndrome from the vaccine. That, is not as sound a reason.

Penguinsix gave a mix of all these reasons. Not acknowledging that people have posted illogical reasons to fear the shot would be silly and not answering the question accurately. FWIW, I have no strong opinion about this shot. I can clearly see both sides and while I'm concerned, I am not alarmed about the flu or the vaccine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But he was only answering the question - why don't some vaccinate? And he gave a correct, accurate response. Some reasons that have been stated on this forum and others are sound, some are not. You can't just pick the few he listed that sound idiotic and accuse people of being defensive.

I know some parents who are not vaccinating simply because they both work and don't want to give up a Saturday standing in line in a clinic to get a shot for a disease that they don't think will be a big deal. Hard to argue with that logic. Sounds good to me.

I also have a mom on my neighborhood list serv who is convinced her child will get gulf war syndrome from the vaccine. That, is not as sound a reason.

Penguinsix gave a mix of all these reasons. Not acknowledging that people have posted illogical reasons to fear the shot would be silly and not answering the question accurately. FWIW, I have no strong opinion about this shot. I can clearly see both sides and while I'm concerned, I am not alarmed about the flu or the vaccine.

so what did you end up doing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Actually, it's not so much sarcastic or clever as it is insulting. Not everyone who has questioned whether to get this vaccination is citing their degree from the "University of Google" or anecdotes 3x removed.

If you are confident in your decision to get this vaccine, why the need to marginalize, demonize, or even criticize those who have made a different one? Spending God-knows-how-much time doing so--or making "cute" lists to amuse mothers too insecure to stop second-guessing themselves--seems rather unproductive.

I posted this. No one has answered this question, so I will: some people are not 100% confident in their decision, so they need to make people who have made a different one look uneducated, lunatic, or paranoid. If that's what you need to do to not obsess about it or second-guess your decision to have gotten it, go ahead. I have no need to do it. I come to this forum as one more place of getting updated information and perspectives. I clicked on this post originally because I thought it might contain a link to something worth reading or perhaps some valuable information; I am fully aware that I do not know everything.

I think someone can be very confident in the decision - either for or against - and still think that some of the reasoning on this site is wacky.

FWIW I think that someone who judges others' opinions and yet refuses to share her own reasoning is either unconfident or unwilling to contribute constructively. Once again, if you have good reasons, share them so that others may be persuaded by your opinion.

If contributing constructively were a prerequisite for every post, there would be a lot fewer of them.

That said, I do have good reasons...for me. They may not be good reasons for you, which is fine. That is my whole point. Where does it say that we need to persuade each other one way or another? Honestly, I feel fine with the decision I made and have absolutely no criticism to level at anyone, since I'm fairly convinced that, in general, people do what they think is in the best interests of their kids. That is how it should be. I can't fathom why people need to browbeat strangers on a forum and convince them that their way is the best and only way.