Are DC/MD/VA kids smarter than kids in other parts of the US?

[Anonymous]

I've seen people claim a few times that DC/MD/VA kids are much smarter than kids in most other parts of the US, and I'm wondering if that's true or not. I'm trying to think of a way to test that claim, and I'm interested in your thoughts.

Usually this claim comes up when people start comparing scores on tests like WPPSI, WISC, ERB, etc. One person will say her kid scored 99% on a test. Someone often will respond that a 99% score doesn't mean much because high test scores are common in the DC/MD/VA area. The logic seems to be that because DC/MD/VA kids score very high on the socioeconomic scale (SES) generally, and that DC/MD/VA attracts some of the brightest people in the country because of the many opportunities here, so it stands to reason that there are many 99% kids here.

To me, it makes sense that many DC/MD/VA kids score high on the SES scale, and my understanding is that generally correlates with higher test scores. So I guess it makes sense that the top 10% of DC/MD/VA test-takers might do pretty well. But I'm not so sure DC/MD/VA kids (or their parents) at the top 10% are any smarter than top-10% kids in other cities like NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, SF, Philadelphia, Houston, Dallas, Miami, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc. I'm trying to think of a way to get some data on this issue. I know there is NAEP data (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/aboutnaep.asp) on test scores that includes both public and private school students, and that seems like it might provide a neutral baseline for comparison.

Before I spend time digging through the data, does this comparison make sense? I think the NAEP data will tell me the median score for kids in the 90th percentile in every state, and in several cities. Would comparing that top-10% be useful in assessing whether DC/MD/VA really has more 99% kids than anywhere else? To me, it seems like a useful exercise. High scores in the top 10% seemingly would suggest higher scores in the top 1%. Does that approach make sense?

BTW, I'm not trying to talk about whether any of these tests are good predictors of academic success. I've read some threads and some outside materials about whether or not there is a link, and I've got my own opinions. However, I'm not looking at those issues here.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I just want to be clear that I'm not trying to stir up some debate about public/private schools, about relative happiness of different kids, about the value of standardized testing, or even SAHM vs. WOHM. I really am just interested in the question out of sheer curiosity. So please leave the drama for the "Sex & Relationship" forum!

[Anonymous]

I think its just a pockets of urban affluence kind of thing. Cities that attract highly-educated workers probably end up with a disproportionate number of academically talented kids. So I wouldn't say DC kids are smarter than kids in Cambridge or the Silicon Valley or NYC or parts of LA or Research Triangle. The private school culture here probably also fosters this perception because there's more testing and segregation based on wealth. So most of the kids in the metropolitan area just drop out of the picture in DCUM discussions as people focus on privates, magnets, gifted programs, etc.

[Anonymous]

That's an interesting question, OP. I tend to agree with your initial analysis, based on nothing but conjecture.

Another data point that I use is 'percentage of the population with graduate degrees' or whatever the Census Bureau calls it. I believe the District of Columbia is near the top of cities reviewed.

(Here is an old press release demonstrating what I mean, someone can look up the newer data: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/american_community_survey_acs/001712.html )

I predict that in these areas, there is a higher concentration of high-IQ children.

You could use this as a companion to the SES data point because there are a lot of $$ families in the NYC and LA areas especially that have high "socio" and "economic" status without having top levels of education. My cousins the Wall St. traders come to mind.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you're starting from a false premise (or two). First, when people say test scores tend to be higher here, I don't think they're comparing the distributions within different metropolitan areas; they're comparing the local distribution to the national one. Second, when people say test scores are higher, I don't think most people are saying the kids are smarter; they're just saying the scores are higher (largely, especially when it comes to tests administered to younger kids, due to the higher prevalence of highly enriched environments around here).

[Anonymous]

The answer to the question is no.

[Anonymous]

I agree pp -- the answer is a firm "no". People just think they are smarter here because there tend to be a lot of "type As" and they say DC is a town of "class presidents". You'll find just as many smart kids just about anywhere.

I did see a stat in the WP that said DC had the highest % of people with Masters Degrees. They doesn't mean they're smarter -- just more educated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I think you're starting from a false premise (or two). First, when people say test scores tend to be higher here, I don't think they're comparing the distributions within different metropolitan areas; they're comparing the local distribution to the national one. Second, when people say test scores are higher, I don't think most people are saying the kids are smarter; they're just saying the scores are higher (largely, especially when it comes to tests administered to younger kids, due to the higher prevalence of highly enriched environments around here).

OP here. Let me make sure I understand you.

Starting with your second point -- that test scores do not necessarily equal smarts. That's absolutely a fair point. And despite the title of the thread, I'm really trying to avoid the discussion about whether or not the various tests are accurate predictors of how "smart" kids are. I recognize that "smart" comes in all shapes and sizes, and is not necessarily best measured by a test. I'm really trying to get at the comparison of different locations, and testing data is just a good neutral baseline for everyone.

On your first point, I'm not sure I understand. Is your point that DC area scores should be higher generally than the national average? And presumably that other large metro areas should also be higher than the national average, but about the same as DC? So you're thinking that large metro areas generally should have higher scores than other small-metro (or non-metro) areas, at least in that top-10% range? In other words, you're thinking that the top-10% of DC students are probably at about the same level as the top-10% of Chicago students, and both are likely scoring much better than the national average for top-10% scores or even the Illinois State top-10%?

Thanks for your input.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The answer to the question is no.

I agree pp -- the answer is a firm "no". People just think they are smarter here ....

I appreciate the short answers. If I decide to crunch the data, maybe we'll find some evidence for your views.

[Anonymous]

FWIW, the District regularly has the highest cutoff score in the country for the PSAT/NMSQT test. Granted, only college-bound kids generally take that test. MD is usually up there as well.

[Anonymous]

Based on nothing but instinct, I would think that the DC area is equally as smart, but not necessarily smarter then LA, NY, Chicago, San Fran. There are very bright people in all those cities who tend to be attentive/targeted parents and therefore have children who tend to score well. I doubt that one city is substantially smarter/higher scoring (forget the actual verbiage) then another once your in the "A" cities. (And before anyone jumps on the term "A" I just mean the largest metropolitan area cities which are referred to as A in the business...)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, the District regularly has the highest cutoff score in the country for the PSAT/NMSQT test. Granted, only college-bound kids generally take that test. MD is usually up there as well.

Actually, that's just PSAT's policy with respect to DC -- i.e. they've set the cut-off equal to the most restrictive cut-off that is set in a state (based on each year's test results). But you're right that MD is typically among the top states few states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, the District regularly has the highest cutoff score in the country for the PSAT/NMSQT test. Granted, only college-bound kids generally take that test. MD is usually up there as well.

Actually, that's just PSAT's policy with respect to DC -- i.e. they've set the cut-off equal to the most restrictive cut-off that is set in a state (based on each year's test results). But you're right that MD is typically among the top states few states.

PSAT cut offs are influenced by the preparation of the children taking the tests. In an area with lots of top-notch private schools that rule PSAT test-prep, they are going to determine the cur-offs. I grew up in Honolulu, where the PSAT cut offs were astronomical because Iolani School's PSAT prep was legendary (Iolani alone produces about 40% of the state's National Merit Semifinalists). The high cut offs are not a reflection of the state's socio-economic status, they reflect private school influence on test scores.

[Anonymous]

Not in DC -- because DC scores aren't used to determine DC's cut-off. And it's hard to see privates as having a huge impact statewide in MD.

[Anonymous]

I read recently that intelligence is about 50% heritable. (In comparison, certain physical traits like height are more like 80-90% heritable.) 50% is still very high, though. Therefore, one would expect that since this area has such a high percentage of intelligent, educated people (and the two do correlate largely, though of course not perfectly), that there would be a higher percentage of smarter children here, yes.