D.C. needs to get a lot more car friendly

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

DP. Yes of course. Why wouldn’t I?

Because a commuter bike doesn't have a basket and most people dont want to sweat before going out to meet people.

You can get a nice panier for any bike. And believe it or not, biking is often cooler in the summer than walking or metro. I guess if you drive from garage to garage it’s cooler but that’s more of a suburban thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

It’s a recipe for turning DC into enclaves, further entrenching socio-economic and racial divides in an already segregated city.

I love it when the anti-traffic safety people make truly stupid and bad-faith arguments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

I don’t believe PP was saying that everyone needs to bike 100% of the time …

To your questions - yes, I make alternate plans if it is raining a lot. Generally my alternate plan is walking or metro, and biking is often cooler. If it’s really bad, I uber. For heavy things I get delivery or use panniers. I dislike dressing up, but my friends bike in dresses and heels. We need more bike infrastructure, but there’s generally a fairly safe bike route to most places I go. Biking is not for everyone but safer streets are better for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

DP. Yes of course. Why wouldn’t I?

Because a commuter bike doesn't have a basket and most people dont want to sweat before going out to meet people.

My commuter bike has panniers that I put stuff in, and a rack that I can put more stuff on. I only do a backpack if I need to. It works great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

Bring a change of clothes
I have a u lock and my bike hasn’t been stolen since I got it ten years ago
Yes
That’s why there is a 50+ page thread of people advocating for more bike infrastructure
There are also people who can’t drive. There are also people that can’t walk. We can’t limit modes of transportation bc certain ppl can’t do it

I think this answers all of your questions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

Rain: it depends. If I'm going to work I'll put dry work clothes on my panniers, change there. Or bus/metro if I don't feel like it. On the way home or casual errands I get wet. Maybe a raincoat/rain pants to get less wet. Dressy events are a rare occasion for me.

Heat: similar - although I'd ask the same question of metro/bus. I tend to get sweaty just walking/waiting, but it's not reasonable to expect everyone to drive in an air conditioned car right to the air conditioned building they are going to. I try to plan summer activities where it's ok to be hot/sweaty then cool down.

I can carry a decent load on the bike probably 50+ pounds. A trailer is an option if it's a much bigger thing.

I purposefully ride a bike that I won't cry over if it gets stolen, so I park wherever. If it were a really risky spot I'd probably do a CaBi, although I don't really enjoy riding those.

I will ride in the street without bike lanes, but I prefer not to. The protected bike lanes are much more comfortable and a good way to make biking accessible to more people like seniors, children, or other people that don't want to mix it up with drivers.

There are people who can't bike, just like there are people who can't drive. An acquaintance takes their blind friend biking on a tandem and it's pretty cool. I think it'd be great to have more accessible options, like recumbent trikes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

It’s a recipe for turning DC into enclaves, further entrenching socio-economic and racial divides in an already segregated city.

Already happening

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

Rain: it depends. If I'm going to work I'll put dry work clothes on my panniers, change there. Or bus/metro if I don't feel like it. On the way home or casual errands I get wet. Maybe a raincoat/rain pants to get less wet. Dressy events are a rare occasion for me.

Heat: similar - although I'd ask the same question of metro/bus. I tend to get sweaty just walking/waiting, but it's not reasonable to expect everyone to drive in an air conditioned car right to the air conditioned building they are going to. I try to plan summer activities where it's ok to be hot/sweaty then cool down.

I can carry a decent load on the bike probably 50+ pounds. A trailer is an option if it's a much bigger thing.

I purposefully ride a bike that I won't cry over if it gets stolen, so I park wherever. If it were a really risky spot I'd probably do a CaBi, although I don't really enjoy riding those.

I will ride in the street without bike lanes, but I prefer not to. The protected bike lanes are much more comfortable and a good way to make biking accessible to more people like seniors, children, or other people that don't want to mix it up with drivers.

There are people who can't bike, just like there are people who can't drive. An acquaintance takes their blind friend biking on a tandem and it's pretty cool. I think it'd be great to have more accessible options, like recumbent trikes.

Thank you for sharing all the very boring details about why you like bikes. I’d rather have more parking spaces.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

Rain: it depends. If I'm going to work I'll put dry work clothes on my panniers, change there. Or bus/metro if I don't feel like it. On the way home or casual errands I get wet. Maybe a raincoat/rain pants to get less wet. Dressy events are a rare occasion for me.

Heat: similar - although I'd ask the same question of metro/bus. I tend to get sweaty just walking/waiting, but it's not reasonable to expect everyone to drive in an air conditioned car right to the air conditioned building they are going to. I try to plan summer activities where it's ok to be hot/sweaty then cool down.

I can carry a decent load on the bike probably 50+ pounds. A trailer is an option if it's a much bigger thing.

I purposefully ride a bike that I won't cry over if it gets stolen, so I park wherever. If it were a really risky spot I'd probably do a CaBi, although I don't really enjoy riding those.

I will ride in the street without bike lanes, but I prefer not to. The protected bike lanes are much more comfortable and a good way to make biking accessible to more people like seniors, children, or other people that don't want to mix it up with drivers.

There are people who can't bike, just like there are people who can't drive. An acquaintance takes their blind friend biking on a tandem and it's pretty cool. I think it'd be great to have more accessible options, like recumbent trikes.

Thank you for sharing all the very boring details about why you like bikes. I’d rather have more parking spaces.

Someone asked a bunch of questions about what the PP who bikes a lot does when it rains and several people answered. Not sure why someone answering a question on a thread about transportation in the city was so triggering for you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

It’s a recipe for turning DC into enclaves, further entrenching socio-economic and racial divides in an already segregated city.

Suburbs only accessible by car we're literally set up to segregate us into racial and socio-economic enclaves. Suggest you learn some history first.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

Weird. I started biking because metro was being unreliable and I don't like driving because of DC traffic, parking, etc. I made that switch years ago.

And do you bike to the supermarket, restaurants, etc?

Yes, I do. Not 100% of the time, but I much prefer to.

What do you do when it rains or when it's 90 degrees out? What do you do when you have heavy things to carry? Where do you park your bike you don't want stolen? What if you like dressing up for social outings? And are you generally comfortable riding on the street with cars where there are no dedicated bike lanes? To get from point A to point B you often need to take this risk, and many people just don't feel comfortable. I love biking, but there are just way too many things that make it inconvenient and our cities just don't have adequate infrastructure yet to make it safe, pleasant and convenient outside of recreation and some predetermined work commute. And there are also people who cannot bike.

Rain: it depends. If I'm going to work I'll put dry work clothes on my panniers, change there. Or bus/metro if I don't feel like it. On the way home or casual errands I get wet. Maybe a raincoat/rain pants to get less wet. Dressy events are a rare occasion for me.

Heat: similar - although I'd ask the same question of metro/bus. I tend to get sweaty just walking/waiting, but it's not reasonable to expect everyone to drive in an air conditioned car right to the air conditioned building they are going to. I try to plan summer activities where it's ok to be hot/sweaty then cool down.

I can carry a decent load on the bike probably 50+ pounds. A trailer is an option if it's a much bigger thing.

I purposefully ride a bike that I won't cry over if it gets stolen, so I park wherever. If it were a really risky spot I'd probably do a CaBi, although I don't really enjoy riding those.

I will ride in the street without bike lanes, but I prefer not to. The protected bike lanes are much more comfortable and a good way to make biking accessible to more people like seniors, children, or other people that don't want to mix it up with drivers.

There are people who can't bike, just like there are people who can't drive. An acquaintance takes their blind friend biking on a tandem and it's pretty cool. I think it'd be great to have more accessible options, like recumbent trikes.

Thank you for sharing all the very boring details about why you like bikes. I’d rather have more parking spaces.

You're welcome. Thank you for sharing your very boring pro-climate-catastrophe take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

This is happening in other cities as well. Museums in San Francisco struggle to survive with the reduced flow of people that has come with closing roads to car traffic. It’s really terrible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

This is happening in other cities as well. Museums in San Francisco struggle to survive with the reduced flow of people that has come with closing roads to car traffic. It’s really terrible.

Oh, you mean the wealthy De Young museum that thinks it is entitled to free public parking (despite having an 800 car parking garage)? And is blaming its covid-related attendance problems on the car-free road? The one that pays its CEO $1 million/year and paid lobbyists who knows how much to fight for free parking?

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Anonymous wrote:Just so you know. The owner of Bread Furst himself has said that the location was specifically picked because of parking, visibility and neighborhood household income. He would be the absolute last person to want to make Connecticut a one lane road without parking.

I can't speak for the owner of Bread Furst, but many business owners are in favor of traffic calming. They know that a lot of their business comes from people who arrive on foot, and they don't enjoy risking their own lives getting to work.

Oh please do share the names of these businesses that are clamoring for narrower streets, no parking and physical impediments.

Business owners hate it when it’s easy for people to come to their stores

Totally. I just dug up this really interesting research from NYC that is strong support for traffic calming being very good for local business.

https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/dot-economic-benefits-of-sustainable-streets.pdf

This is a straw man. The issue is not how calm the traffic is, the issue is whether the traffic can stop and spend. TaKe away parking and take away curbside access (hello bike lane) and those businesses will fail.

Lol, bikers spend quite a bit and don't waste valuable parking spaces.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/more-businesses-in-san-diego-begin-to-embrace-bike-lanes/2951045/

The only problem is that the number of bikers is tiny.

And they make it harder to walk around because they don't follow traffic rules

"There's so few of them that they make it hard to walk around, and I'm going to ignore the vehicles that actually kill pedestrians" is a very interesting take. Like, some real five dimensional logical. Or just pure BS. Yeah, pure BS. Thanks.

I know these are difficult concepts and helmet laws are a relatively new phenomenon but try and follow:

The argument you proferred was that bicylists and bike lanes would be economically beneficial to retail businesses. That they would make up any business lost due to lost parking etc. The problem with that argument is two fold and for two different reasons. Firstly there arent anywhere near enough bicyclists, especially yearround, to make up that volume and secondly, any benfits from increased pedestrianization due to less cars is completely offset by bike lanes due to bicyclists not stopping at lights and stop signs. In short, there are not enough bicyclists to make up lost demand AND pedestrian access is not improved.

1. You don't know how much business will be lost from removal of some parking. It's not 100% and it may not even be a large percent.
2. You don't know how much increased business comes from bicyclists and pedestrians.
You're just making stuff up to fit your narrative. Please go back to grade school for how to make an argument.

Really? Physician, heal thyself.

Narrower lanes, no parking, and physical impediments will not increase either density or business. Increased density requires wider not narrower lanes. Increased walkability requires no physical impediments and no bike thoroughfares. Parking is a function of density. If there is enough density, 300% more than now, then parking is less necessary but the catch-22 is that in order to get past the first stages of increased density there needs to be more parking.

That is the problem of using "pedestrian safety" and economic development as a stalking horse for bike lanes. Bike lanes do neither while the anti-car measures actively harm economic development by reducing access and demand. DC has nowhere near the level of population density for neighborhoods to be entirely self-sustaining.

Ok, more conjecture. Cool, thanks.

Oh sorry. Was the basic logic to complicated or are you just in the denial phase? It's basic economics. It's also all the pro-density arguments you make. The only problem you have is that the specific measures you want to implement - narrow roads, no parking and physical impediments - decrease rather than increase population density.

Oh, cool. City development is basic economics. Who knew it was so simple?

You're showing your ignorance here.

Isn't it. I mean all we have to do is increase congestion, remove parking and make walking more complicated. Once we reduce access and demand then we'll have an economic nirvana.

1. Remove sidewalks, bike lanes, bus stuff, add travel lanes and parking
2. ?
3. Profit!

Interesting that you say that. Nobody has proposed any of that. What is being demanded is eliminating roads, narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments with the specific and stated goal of increasing congestion in order to reduce demand which will somehow miraculously result in more business and a population increase. This is a phenomenally stupid idea.

What is being "demanded" is traffic calming and creating space for other forms of transit - bus, pedestrian, bike. Traffic calming, by definition, slows down traffic. No, you do not have the right to drive through DC at 50MPH and block other forms of transit with your free parking.

What you're claiming (in the absence of all evidence) is that traffic calming ruins business.

Come on say what you mean instead of hiding behind euphemisms. The traffic "calming" proposals are narrowing streets, removing parking, and adding physical impediments.

The big irony is that none of that calms anything. Instead it increases frustration and congestion. That is your stated goal. To make driving so bad and inconvenient that they look for alternatives. The problem with that is that those alternatives will be other areas.



People do not drive through DC at 50mph. There is too much traffic to do that.

This. 100%

Nobody is going to switch to bikes because traffic is bad. That’s laughable. One thing that will definitely happen is people will circulate less. They won’t move about the city as much and stay closer to home. Hard to see how that’s in anyone interest. But our city is ruled by people who are not just ignorant of economics but actively hostile to it.

This is happening in other cities as well. Museums in San Francisco struggle to survive with the reduced flow of people that has come with closing roads to car traffic. It’s really terrible.

A lot of businesses are leaving DC for the suburbs. There aren’t enough people to sustain their businesses when you take away all the parking, make it too difficult to drive, etc. My guess is that at some point, the city will have to tear out a lot of the bike infrastructure because it hurts businesses (and tax revenue) so much. It’s just not economically viable.