Jewish Teacher/student named Adonai

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

Thanks for writing back, OP. I'm not Jewish, but have many Jewish friends and know a bit about the culture and practices, so I was interested to hear what the rabbi said. I predicted that would be the answer. I've actually found one of the interesting/appealing things about Judaism is that while there are many rules and customs, there is also and long-standing tradition of exploration, questions, and debate when it comes to potentially challenging issues like this, and the attitude seems to be more in the vein of problem-solving rather than very black and white absolutism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

New poster -

I want to suggest you reflect, especially as a kindergarten teacher. You did not present yourself as very open minded, willing to adapt, or kind / compassionate.
To quote you:

"I'm actually a little pissed off. I don't mind people naming their kids whatever they want, but this smacks of ignorance and disrespect.

I even feel weird writing the word. I don't feel comfortable saying that name outside of prayer. Considering calling her by her last name...Miss ______. WWYD?

How, pray tell, am I hurting her by calling her Miss ( add her last name)?
?I have rights too, you know.?"

She's a FIVE year old. You're a grown woman. Think about that. Come ON. You really wanted to belittle and dehumanize her. Get over yourself, or maybe consider a new career.

+1 am Jewish, but come on OP. You are the adult here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers are getting fired left and right for refusing to call trans students by their names and saying "it's against my religion" (usually 'Christian') to call them their chosen trans name. OP sounds like she's headed toward that. You can't decide it's against your religion to call someone their name. Especially their legal, given name. SHE DIDN'T PICK THIS NAME.

"left and right"? So, many teachers are being fired for this? Funny, I haven't heard of a single teacher fired for refusing to call a student by his or her chosen name.

There was one in VA, but "left and right" is a total exaggeration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teachers are getting fired left and right for refusing to call trans students by their names and saying "it's against my religion" (usually 'Christian') to call them their chosen trans name. OP sounds like she's headed toward that. You can't decide it's against your religion to call someone their name. Especially their legal, given name. SHE DIDN'T PICK THIS NAME.

"left and right"? So, many teachers are being fired for this? Funny, I haven't heard of a single teacher fired for refusing to call a student by his or her chosen name.

https://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/virginia-high-school-teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-use-transgender/article_65be1826-50b2-5d38-be58-47d9b9480917.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/teacher-fired-refusing-use-transgender-student-s-pronouns-n946006

https://www.insideedition.com/virginia-teacher-fired-not-using-transgender-students-chosen-pronoun-because-religious-beliefs

https://wtvr.com/2018/12/06/west-point-teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-call-transgender-student-male-pronouns/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

I think you brought the negative comments on yourself by being super defensive and dismissive with this response: "I'm just going to call my rabbi. I should have know better. Thank you , by the way to those that at least put themselves in my position before sharing. I do appreciate that. I have rights too, you know." Aside from the person who called you a troll (and there's always one of those). Most of us gave solid advice or raised interesting legal or ethical issues. The comments were not nasty, they just expressed opinions and ideas different from your own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

New poster -

I want to suggest you reflect, especially as a kindergarten teacher. You did not present yourself as very open minded, willing to adapt, or kind / compassionate.
To quote you:

"I'm actually a little pissed off. I don't mind people naming their kids whatever they want, but this smacks of ignorance and disrespect.

I even feel weird writing the word. I don't feel comfortable saying that name outside of prayer. Considering calling her by her last name...Miss ______. WWYD?

How, pray tell, am I hurting her by calling her Miss ( add her last name)?
?I have rights too, you know.?"

She's a FIVE year old. You're a grown woman. Think about that. Come ON. You really wanted to belittle and dehumanize her. Get over yourself, or maybe consider a new career.

Oh silly Jew, just get over your deeply felt religious convictions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

New poster -

I want to suggest you reflect, especially as a kindergarten teacher. You did not present yourself as very open minded, willing to adapt, or kind / compassionate.
To quote you:

"I'm actually a little pissed off. I don't mind people naming their kids whatever they want, but this smacks of ignorance and disrespect.

I even feel weird writing the word. I don't feel comfortable saying that name outside of prayer. Considering calling her by her last name...Miss ______. WWYD?

How, pray tell, am I hurting her by calling her Miss ( add her last name)?
?I have rights too, you know.?"

She's a FIVE year old. You're a grown woman. Think about that. Come ON. You really wanted to belittle and dehumanize her. Get over yourself, or maybe consider a new career.

+1 am Jewish, but come on OP. You are the adult here.

You are Jewish, but do you believe it is forbidden to say Adonai in this context? I assume the answer is no, which makes it much easier for you to say OP should simply be the adult. But your interpretation as to what is permitted under Jewish law is not binding on OP.

[Anonymous]

This was a very interesting question, OP. I'm glad you were able to work it out.

Was moving this child to a different class not an option?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

New poster -

I want to suggest you reflect, especially as a kindergarten teacher. You did not present yourself as very open minded, willing to adapt, or kind / compassionate.
To quote you:

"I'm actually a little pissed off. I don't mind people naming their kids whatever they want, but this smacks of ignorance and disrespect.

I even feel weird writing the word. I don't feel comfortable saying that name outside of prayer. Considering calling her by her last name...Miss ______. WWYD?

How, pray tell, am I hurting her by calling her Miss ( add her last name)?
?I have rights too, you know.?"

She's a FIVE year old. You're a grown woman. Think about that. Come ON. You really wanted to belittle and dehumanize her. Get over yourself, or maybe consider a new career.

+1 am Jewish, but come on OP. You are the adult here.

You are Jewish, but do you believe it is forbidden to say Adonai in this context? I assume the answer is no, which makes it much easier for you to say OP should simply be the adult. But your interpretation as to what is permitted under Jewish law is not binding on OP.

But how Judaism works, is that if they won't say something, they won't write it either... And she had no problem writing it, because she posted it. SO- she didn't *actually* have a problem saying it...... That's not anyone's interpretation, that's how Jewish law works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

New poster -

I want to suggest you reflect, especially as a kindergarten teacher. You did not present yourself as very open minded, willing to adapt, or kind / compassionate.
To quote you:

"I'm actually a little pissed off. I don't mind people naming their kids whatever they want, but this smacks of ignorance and disrespect.

I even feel weird writing the word. I don't feel comfortable saying that name outside of prayer. Considering calling her by her last name...Miss ______. WWYD?

How, pray tell, am I hurting her by calling her Miss ( add her last name)?
?I have rights too, you know.?"

She's a FIVE year old. You're a grown woman. Think about that. Come ON. You really wanted to belittle and dehumanize her. Get over yourself, or maybe consider a new career.

Oh silly Jew, just get over your deeply felt religious convictions.

No.

As a teacher Op should know that singling the child out is wrong. Miss Last name should never have been a consideration.

Ask to have the child reassigned. Even now after speaking with her Rabbi because I would think it could still be very uncomfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of G-d per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of G-d. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of G-d casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

Interesting. So what would an observant Jew think about OP using the name at issue in the thread title, given that she likely knew there was a possibility that Jeff would ultimately delete this thread due to the controversy it may cause. Would that fall in the "destroyed accidentally" category?

I am not a rabbi but AFAIK there are differences of opinion about the halachic status of electronic communications. This plays out for example in the question of using a computer (or similar) on shabbas. Not for the Orthodox (who do not operate electric devices on shabbat, though they will use the light from a light bulb turned on BEFORE shabbos, or, some, by a timer set before shabbos) but for observant Conservative Jews, most of whom have no objection to starting an electric current on shabbos, but who do refrain from "writing" on shabbos. It is permissible to say, write your name in the sand, and then cover it by brushing the sand IIUC. It is inherently non permanent, not "writing". By analogy moving electrons is similar. OTOH the response is made that in our era electronics take the place of writing with a pen or pencil, so it must be held to be writing.

Consult your local rabbi, if you need to decide your own practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not a Jew, but have many Jewish friends and have celebrated many holidays including Passover with them regularly.

My understanding was that the proscription was against the name of the Lord, e.g. the name that is mispronounced Jehovah (from the Tetragrammaton, YHWH). Adonai is one substitute that is used in place of the sacred name. While you are not supposed to use the name lightly, Adonai is not the actual name of G-d, but the substitute that is allowed for prayer. In this case, using the name as the proper name of a person does not reference the Lord and using it as the person's name is using the name with irreverence.

If you cannot bring yourself to use the child's name, you need to work with your school to transfer the child to a teacher who can teach her without causing a problem. If you cannot use her name, you should not be teaching her. Singling her out by addressing her differently than all other children in your class should not be an option. That would be a dereliction of your responsibilities as a teacher.

Most Orthodox, and few non-Orthodox Jews will avoid using this substitute name outside of prayer. They will refer to G-d as "Hashem" (which means "the name") and in contexts like a song, where the right number of syllables and sounds are needed, they will sing "Adoshem". So at least for some its a pretty serious thing - though it seems like that might not apply in this case, where its not intended as a reference to the deity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a Jew, but have many Jewish friends and have celebrated many holidays including Passover with them regularly.

My understanding was that the proscription was against the name of the Lord, e.g. the name that is mispronounced Jehovah (from the Tetragrammaton, YHWH). Adonai is one substitute that is used in place of the sacred name. While you are not supposed to use the name lightly, Adonai is not the actual name of G-d, but the substitute that is allowed for prayer. In this case, using the name as the proper name of a person does not reference the Lord and using it as the person's name is using the name with irreverence.

If you cannot bring yourself to use the child's name, you need to work with your school to transfer the child to a teacher who can teach her without causing a problem. If you cannot use her name, you should not be teaching her. Singling her out by addressing her differently than all other children in your class should not be an option. That would be a dereliction of your responsibilities as a teacher.

Most Orthodox, and few non-Orthodox Jews will avoid using this substitute name outside of prayer. They will refer to G-d as "Hashem" (which means "the name") and in contexts like a song, where the right number of syllables and sounds are needed, they will sing "Adoshem". So at least for some its a pretty serious thing - though it seems like that might not apply in this case, where its not intended as a reference to the deity.

But these are not the case with OP, she had zero problem writing it here...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wanted to follow up for those who were curious. The rabbi said that it would be ok to call said student by name. Thanks for encouraging me to call. I feel better going into this with his blessing.

I've got to say, however, that I was really disgusted by all the negative and nasty comments. I don't think it was very nice to jump to conclusions about my character. I was simply trying to gain some perspective. Hopefully you'll think twice before slinging the nasty comments. Or not. Your choice. Thanks to those who showed empathy and gave my quandary some real thought. It was helpful to hear your comments.

Are you to DCUM?

A. Most gentiles do not know anything about halacha, and quite a few (both certain Christians, and many militant secularists) are hostile to the very concept. B. Quite a few Jews for various reasons are similar. C. DCUM is an anon forum filled with venom.

Aside from talking to a rabbi for the halachic info (and general life advice, they can be good for that too!) you would have been better finding a specifically Jewish forum (preferably your own branch? but not necessarily) to discuss this. There would still be disagreement, and likely voices telling you to go ahead and call the student by her given name, but it would be informed by different knowledge and tone than here. There are for example numerous facebook groups on Judaism, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a Jew, but have many Jewish friends and have celebrated many holidays including Passover with them regularly.

My understanding was that the proscription was against the name of the Lord, e.g. the name that is mispronounced Jehovah (from the Tetragrammaton, YHWH). Adonai is one substitute that is used in place of the sacred name. While you are not supposed to use the name lightly, Adonai is not the actual name of G-d, but the substitute that is allowed for prayer. In this case, using the name as the proper name of a person does not reference the Lord and using it as the person's name is using the name with irreverence.

If you cannot bring yourself to use the child's name, you need to work with your school to transfer the child to a teacher who can teach her without causing a problem. If you cannot use her name, you should not be teaching her. Singling her out by addressing her differently than all other children in your class should not be an option. That would be a dereliction of your responsibilities as a teacher.

Most Orthodox, and few non-Orthodox Jews will avoid using this substitute name outside of prayer. They will refer to G-d as "Hashem" (which means "the name") and in contexts like a song, where the right number of syllables and sounds are needed, they will sing "Adoshem". So at least for some its a pretty serious thing - though it seems like that might not apply in this case, where its not intended as a reference to the deity.

But these are not the case with OP, she had zero problem writing it here...

In addition to the question about electronic "writing" mentioned above, there are some who will use a name of G-d for specific purposes but not casually. I won't use the four letter name when praying, or even casually, but will write "yahweh" when discussing the linguistics and history of that name. Similarly OP may have trouble using "adonai" every day, but used it to ease communication about the problem. Now were she Orthodox, she would probably have come up with something clever like writing a-d-o-n-a-i or similar - but that would have led to deeper confusion, this being DCUM. Which again, is why this was not an appropriate forum for the question.