Is National AP Scholar impressive for top 20 schools? DS will have taken 17 APs by graduation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a reason that T30 acceptance rates have halved in the past 8-10 years. There are a lot of very smart kids out there who work really really hard. And the common app has made it easier for MORE of these kids to apply. Public schools have upped their game by offering two tracked/AP curriculum. 65% of ivy league acceptances are from public schools, I personally think there is a zero percent chance of a public school kid making it if if they were offered and not taken. Private school parents are now demanding APs be offered. It's another data point that top 30 schools want. AP tests are meaningful, actually very meaningful according to Fitzsimmons and other people close to the admissions process.

And yet they don’t even ask for the scores during the admissions process....

Of course they do, and if you are applying to H, and they are interested in you and you DID NOT put your AP scores on the app...they will call your kids CG or email your kid. I know this for a fact bc it happened to us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:5 or 4 on all of them.

I think the main thing is, especially if your DS voluntarily chose those classes because they seemed like the right classes, not because you pushed: it sounds as if you have a great, smart, hard-working son who's terrific. If some schools reject him because 17 AP classes makes them yawn: the college admissions process is crazy. You can't help the fact that admissions is crazy. Just be happy about the schools that do recognize your son's worth and admit him.

If some parents here are trying to minimize your son's achievement: they're probably just jealous, or angry about the possibility that other parents could have bright kids, too.

ITA with the first paragraph.

And totally disagree with the second. What’s really going on here is a disagreement about education. And maybe some overlapping public vs. private school split. Basically, APs are designed to make money and that leads to a lot of decisions that are suboptimal from an educational standpoint (e.g. physics and stats exams that don’t require calc, exams a month before school ends, multiple choice). They are useful to (some) public schools for two reasons — one is that they give students from unknown (to a college admissions officer at a particular college) schools a credential that benchmarks what they’ve learned against a national cohort. The other is that they facilitate tracking (on a voluntary basis) that segregates smart/ambitious kids from others.

If you send your kid to a high school that has a track record of sending its grads to t20/highly selective undergrad programs, then the first function is unnecessary. And if DC’s HS has selective admissions, the second is largely superfluous. (Note that there are public schools that are feeders to t20s and have selective admissions, and that there are private schools with no track record at some t20s and/or that aren’t academically selective, so these divides aren’t strictly public vs private.). At which point, the benefits of AP don’t outweigh the detriments. And schools sometimes act on that understanding. Could be no AP classes, caps on number of APs, IB alternative. Where they don’t, you have a collective action problem (at least for those who don’t see the value of APs). And individual public HSs may have less room to makes these kinds of decisions (because of state or districtwide policies) than privates do.

I’m not jealous of or threatened by kids who take lots of APs. I’d just like to see smart, highly-motivated HS kids have access to/be encouraged to explore better alternatives.

You're replying to me here.

From an educational policy point of view: What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I intentionally steered away my son from a school where the teachers and students rambled on about how many AP courses there were, but never talked about what interesting things the students were learning.

But, from the perspective of a bright kid who sincerely wants to be challenged: The kid has little way to influence the courses the school offers. Very few kids have access to IB classes, let alone a choice between IB classes and AP classes. The kid may have no way to know whether any non-AP, non-IB courses are actually better than the fancy pants alternatives. The kid just knows, "This is probably a class where the other students can read, and where teacher will probably eject a student who starts throwing erasers at the teacher."

So, I think it's reasonable to give dirty looks to the administrators at that kids' school.

But, if the kid is saying "I'm a bright, ambitious kid who enjoys learning and wants to work hard" by taking a lot of AP classes, I think admissions officers and other adults should respect that kid's effort to be someone. Maybe that's not the only way, the best way or even, necessarily, a good way to be someone, but it's legal, moral and ethical, and it's what the kid figured out how to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Challenging academics are only impressive if you an URM at a T-20. Then the colleges will swoon and gush over it. If you are Asian on the other hand, then it gets you the "grind" label along with " so typical and uninteresting" thrown in as a gratuitous insult. If you don't have it though, you may be questioned as a lazy Asian. If you are white, then they just chalk it up to your "white privilege" of being able to attend a suburban white school.

That's the sad state of T-20 admissions today

I would think anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, or any other background, who took 17 AP classes would be in danger of getting the "grind" label.

You can’t contemplate that a bright child might want to challenge themself with more rigorous courses? That regular track courses were too easy for them? Stretch yourself to think beyond your rigid little world.

My world is neither rigid nor little, and that's part of why I typically have a negative reaction when I hear of kids competing to take the most APs in their high school. I would wish for the kids who are smart and disciplined enough to pull this off to spend their time going more deeply into subjects that excite them or spend more time on non-academic pursuits. I'm not sure how many kids are even able to figure out what areas really interest them if they are saddling themselves with the amount of homework that AP classes typically have. Maybe there are some kids who truly love all subjects equally and and find all their AP classes deeply satisfying. But many kids who are racking up these kind of numbers are doing it either because they want to be valedictorian or think it will impress admissions committees. There are certainly far worse things to do with your life, but there are many better things you could be doing too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a reason that T30 acceptance rates have halved in the past 8-10 years. There are a lot of very smart kids out there who work really really hard. And the common app has made it easier for MORE of these kids to apply. Public schools have upped their game by offering two tracked/AP curriculum. 65% of ivy league acceptances are from public schools, I personally think there is a zero percent chance of a public school kid making it if if they were offered and not taken. Private school parents are now demanding APs be offered. It's another data point that top 30 schools want. AP tests are meaningful, actually very meaningful according to Fitzsimmons and other people close to the admissions process.

And yet they don’t even ask for the scores during the admissions process....

Of course they do, and if you are applying to H, and they are interested in you and you DID NOT put your AP scores on the app...they will call your kids CG or email your kid. I know this for a fact bc it happened to us.

The senior scores don't come in until the admissions decisions are made so are not really relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:5 or 4 on all of them.

I think the main thing is, especially if your DS voluntarily chose those classes because they seemed like the right classes, not because you pushed: it sounds as if you have a great, smart, hard-working son who's terrific. If some schools reject him because 17 AP classes makes them yawn: the college admissions process is crazy. You can't help the fact that admissions is crazy. Just be happy about the schools that do recognize your son's worth and admit him.

If some parents here are trying to minimize your son's achievement: they're probably just jealous, or angry about the possibility that other parents could have bright kids, too.

ITA with the first paragraph.

And totally disagree with the second. What’s really going on here is a disagreement about education. And maybe some overlapping public vs. private school split. Basically, APs are designed to make money and that leads to a lot of decisions that are suboptimal from an educational standpoint (e.g. physics and stats exams that don’t require calc, exams a month before school ends, multiple choice). They are useful to (some) public schools for two reasons — one is that they give students from unknown (to a college admissions officer at a particular college) schools a credential that benchmarks what they’ve learned against a national cohort. The other is that they facilitate tracking (on a voluntary basis) that segregates smart/ambitious kids from others.

If you send your kid to a high school that has a track record of sending its grads to t20/highly selective undergrad programs, then the first function is unnecessary. And if DC’s HS has selective admissions, the second is largely superfluous. (Note that there are public schools that are feeders to t20s and have selective admissions, and that there are private schools with no track record at some t20s and/or that aren’t academically selective, so these divides aren’t strictly public vs private.). At which point, the benefits of AP don’t outweigh the detriments. And schools sometimes act on that understanding. Could be no AP classes, caps on number of APs, IB alternative. Where they don’t, you have a collective action problem (at least for those who don’t see the value of APs). And individual public HSs may have less room to makes these kinds of decisions (because of state or districtwide policies) than privates do.

I’m not jealous of or threatened by kids who take lots of APs. I’d just like to see smart, highly-motivated HS kids have access to/be encouraged to explore better alternatives.

You're replying to me here.

From an educational policy point of view: What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I intentionally steered away my son from a school where the teachers and students rambled on about how many AP courses there were, but never talked about what interesting things the students were learning.

But, from the perspective of a bright kid who sincerely wants to be challenged: The kid has little way to influence the courses the school offers. Very few kids have access to IB classes, let alone a choice between IB classes and AP classes. The kid may have no way to know whether any non-AP, non-IB courses are actually better than the fancy pants alternatives. The kid just knows, "This is probably a class where the other students can read, and where teacher will probably eject a student who starts throwing erasers at the teacher."

So, I think it's reasonable to give dirty looks to the administrators at that kids' school.

But, if the kid is saying "I'm a bright, ambitious kid who enjoys learning and wants to work hard" by taking a lot of AP classes, I think admissions officers and other adults should respect that kid's effort to be someone. Maybe that's not the only way, the best way or even, necessarily, a good way to be someone, but it's legal, moral and ethical, and it's what the kid figured out how to do.

Ok, we’re not that far apart. As I said, ITA with your first paragraph — credit to the kid.

What I resist is writing off critiques of AP-mania as some form of sour grapes (your paragraph 2).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Challenging academics are only impressive if you an URM at a T-20. Then the colleges will swoon and gush over it. If you are Asian on the other hand, then it gets you the "grind" label along with " so typical and uninteresting" thrown in as a gratuitous insult. If you don't have it though, you may be questioned as a lazy Asian. If you are white, then they just chalk it up to your "white privilege" of being able to attend a suburban white school.

That's the sad state of T-20 admissions today

I would think anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, or any other background, who took 17 AP classes would be in danger of getting the "grind" label.

You can’t contemplate that a bright child might want to challenge themself with more rigorous courses? That regular track courses were too easy for them? Stretch yourself to think beyond your rigid little world.

My world is neither rigid nor little, and that's part of why I typically have a negative reaction when I hear of kids competing to take the most APs in their high school. I would wish for the kids who are smart and disciplined enough to pull this off to spend their time going more deeply into subjects that excite them or spend more time on non-academic pursuits. I'm not sure how many kids are even able to figure out what areas really interest them if they are saddling themselves with the amount of homework that AP classes typically have. Maybe there are some kids who truly love all subjects equally and and find all their AP classes deeply satisfying. But many kids who are racking up these kind of numbers are doing it either because they want to be valedictorian or think it will impress admissions committees. There are certainly far worse things to do with your life, but there are many better things you could be doing too.

You’ve made a snide comment about grinders which is rude and dismissive of children that want to challenge themselves academically. As you say, HS students are typically not going to have clarity around what they want to study in college so if they want to challenge themselves why not spread their coursework around to available APs? You say that perhaps their time would be better spent focusing on an area of academic interest (which talks against the idea of generalization and exploration) but it’s not like HSs offer hundreds of electives. You say that perhaps they should focus on non-academic interests but consider that the child’s primary interest may be academic.....not everybody wants to be a sports star. And finally, consider that not everyone shares your priorities and while you’re at it contemplate why you feel compelled to judge teenage children on some crappy message board. You sound like a gigantic bit**.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Challenging academics are only impressive if you an URM at a T-20. Then the colleges will swoon and gush over it. If you are Asian on the other hand, then it gets you the "grind" label along with " so typical and uninteresting" thrown in as a gratuitous insult. If you don't have it though, you may be questioned as a lazy Asian. If you are white, then they just chalk it up to your "white privilege" of being able to attend a suburban white school.

That's the sad state of T-20 admissions today

I would think anyone, regardless of race, ethnicity, or any other background, who took 17 AP classes would be in danger of getting the "grind" label.

You can’t contemplate that a bright child might want to challenge themself with more rigorous courses? That regular track courses were too easy for them? Stretch yourself to think beyond your rigid little world.

My world is neither rigid nor little, and that's part of why I typically have a negative reaction when I hear of kids competing to take the most APs in their high school. I would wish for the kids who are smart and disciplined enough to pull this off to spend their time going more deeply into subjects that excite them or spend more time on non-academic pursuits. I'm not sure how many kids are even able to figure out what areas really interest them if they are saddling themselves with the amount of homework that AP classes typically have. Maybe there are some kids who truly love all subjects equally and and find all their AP classes deeply satisfying. But many kids who are racking up these kind of numbers are doing it either because they want to be valedictorian or think it will impress admissions committees. There are certainly far worse things to do with your life, but there are many better things you could be doing too.

You’ve made a snide comment about grinders which is rude and dismissive of children that want to challenge themselves academically. As you say, HS students are typically not going to have clarity around what they want to study in college so if they want to challenge themselves why not spread their coursework around to available APs? You say that perhaps their time would be better spent focusing on an area of academic interest (which talks against the idea of generalization and exploration) but it’s not like HSs offer hundreds of electives. You say that perhaps they should focus on non-academic interests but consider that the child’s primary interest may be academic.....not everybody wants to be a sports star. And finally, consider that not everyone shares your priorities and while you’re at it contemplate why you feel compelled to judge teenage children on some crappy message board. You sound like a gigantic bit**.

I've done no such thing. I have pointed out, fairly I think, that any kid who takes an unusually high number of AP classes runs the risk of getting labeled that way by some. All their hard work may not be viewed as positively by admissions officers as someone who took fewer APs but showed real passion or deep mastery of certain subjects or extracurriculars. As I stated above, perhaps there are some kids who are taking extreme numbers of these classes because they love doing it, and they are not at all motivated by how they think it will look to colleges. If so, more power to them, and their work will be its own reward.

I am not sure why these would be viewed as controversial statements or why you feel the need to engage in personal attacks.

[Anonymous]

PP you sound like a parent whose kid only scored 3s on APs. Or who is focused on sports.

My DC scores all 5s, takes 80% AP classes(if every class were AP, it would be 100%), is active in 6 clubs, volunteers, and is involved in zero sports. DC has genius-level Iq and enjoys AP classes. No pushing from me. So, stop judging and go back to your bowl of cornflakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP you sound like a parent whose kid only scored 3s on APs. Or who is focused on sports.

My DC scores all 5s, takes 80% AP classes(if every class were AP, it would be 100%), is active in 6 clubs, volunteers, and is involved in zero sports. DC has genius-level Iq and enjoys AP classes. No pushing from me. So, stop judging and go back to your bowl of cornflakes.

The PP makes good points but you can’t see it because you’re drunk with happiness at the idea of your kid possibly getting the highest GPA at his school. It’s become a big contest that you’re going to win through your son. A lot of very bright kids would not agree to take this many formulaic classes but instead would instead take some of the time to explore a chosen subject more deeply and more creatively. Just taking as many AP classes as you can is pretty robotic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you sound like a parent whose kid only scored 3s on APs. Or who is focused on sports.

My DC scores all 5s, takes 80% AP classes(if every class were AP, it would be 100%), is active in 6 clubs, volunteers, and is involved in zero sports. DC has genius-level Iq and enjoys AP classes. No pushing from me. So, stop judging and go back to your bowl of cornflakes.

The PP makes good points but you can’t see it because you’re drunk with happiness at the idea of your kid possibly getting the highest GPA at his school. It’s become a big contest that you’re going to win through your son. A lot of very bright kids would not agree to take this many formulaic classes but instead would instead take some of the time to explore a chosen subject more deeply and more creatively. Just taking as many AP classes as you can is pretty robotic.

Wha? It’s high school. How much of a “chosen subject” can you do? 4 math, 4 English, 4 science, 4 language plus the various phys ed, art, etc requirements. Not a lot of room for deep dives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you sound like a parent whose kid only scored 3s on APs. Or who is focused on sports.

My DC scores all 5s, takes 80% AP classes(if every class were AP, it would be 100%), is active in 6 clubs, volunteers, and is involved in zero sports. DC has genius-level Iq and enjoys AP classes. No pushing from me. So, stop judging and go back to your bowl of cornflakes.

The PP makes good points but you can’t see it because you’re drunk with happiness at the idea of your kid possibly getting the highest GPA at his school. It’s become a big contest that you’re going to win through your son. A lot of very bright kids would not agree to take this many formulaic classes but instead would instead take some of the time to explore a chosen subject more deeply and more creatively. Just taking as many AP classes as you can is pretty robotic.

Firstly, you ARE the PP, that's pretty clear. Secondly, for some reason you are still struggling with the simple idea that children are fundamentally different and what's good for yours is not necessarily what's good for mine. Thirdly, you continue to judge others for making different choices and it's inappropriate. And lastly, you're denigrating a poster for simply describing their child's activities? You have some serious mental issues.

[Anonymous]

Scoring in 4s and 5s in 17 APs is a great thing. Not many people can do that. While some APs will be easier than others based on student's interest, doing 17 means that he is an all around superstar academically. Yes, colleges will take it into account.

Great job.

- Magnet mom.

[Anonymous]

I took 1 AP exam, got a 4 on it, and still got into a top 5 and a top 20 school early. However, I went to a top NE boarding school and graduated with honors, so I think the lack of APs didn't really matter to the admissions committees. If you're going to a school that isn't as well known, it probably makes more of a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP you sound like a parent whose kid only scored 3s on APs. Or who is focused on sports.

My DC scores all 5s, takes 80% AP classes(if every class were AP, it would be 100%), is active in 6 clubs, volunteers, and is involved in zero sports. DC has genius-level Iq and enjoys AP classes. No pushing from me. So, stop judging and go back to your bowl of cornflakes.

The PP makes good points but you can’t see it because you’re drunk with happiness at the idea of your kid possibly getting the highest GPA at his school. It’s become a big contest that you’re going to win through your son. A lot of very bright kids would not agree to take this many formulaic classes but instead would instead take some of the time to explore a chosen subject more deeply and more creatively. Just taking as many AP classes as you can is pretty robotic.

Firstly, you ARE the PP, that's pretty clear. Secondly, for some reason you are still struggling with the simple idea that children are fundamentally different and what's good for yours is not necessarily what's good for mine. Thirdly, you continue to judge others for making different choices and it's inappropriate. And lastly, you're denigrating a poster for simply describing their child's activities? You have some serious mental issues.

I am the first PP you were attacking (the one you called a gigantic b*tch) and I am not the immediate PP, who you claim has mental problems. Let the record show that I have not said a single negative thing about you or your child, two strangers about whom I know nothing. As I said above, twice, if any kid takes tons of AP classes because they love the material, that's great. If they are not doing it to impress college admissions officers, then hopefully their college applications will express who they are and show how much they have to offer their college communities beyond their ability to ace AP tests. If they are doing it to impress college admissions officers, then it would be worthwhile to read some of the cautionary tales on College Confidential like the one posted earlier in this thread.

This is my advice as a veteran of the college admissions process. Take it or leave it, but please knock off all the tedious personal attacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a reason that T30 acceptance rates have halved in the past 8-10 years. There are a lot of very smart kids out there who work really really hard. And the common app has made it easier for MORE of these kids to apply. Public schools have upped their game by offering two tracked/AP curriculum. 65% of ivy league acceptances are from public schools, I personally think there is a zero percent chance of a public school kid making it if if they were offered and not taken. Private school parents are now demanding APs be offered. It's another data point that top 30 schools want. AP tests are meaningful, actually very meaningful according to Fitzsimmons and other people close to the admissions process.

And yet they don’t even ask for the scores during the admissions process....

Of course they do, and if you are applying to H, and they are interested in you and you DID NOT put your AP scores on the app...they will call your kids CG or email your kid. I know this for a fact bc it happened to us.

The senior scores don't come in until the admissions decisions are made so are not really relevant.

If someone is graduating with 17 APs and is Nat'l AP Scholar...there are 11 scores that are available. It takes a high score on 8 or more tests to get that award