Takoma, Easter Magnets. MCPS Pilots Universal Evaluation Process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

There is no evidence that MCPS has overlooked URM kids for gt selection previously. When my DC was in ES, he said the teacher told the kids who were advanced to take the test for HGC. He was my first child in MCPS and in the US, I never heard anything about HGC in MCPS before he brought home the application. That was decade ago.
In MCPS most teachers have been happy to identify URM gift students in their classes and nurture their talent.

You are conflating "advanced" with "gifted" and making the common mistake of assuming a (almost certainly young, white, female) elementary school teacher has the desire, will, or training to identify gifted kids who are also poor/working class or kids of color.

+1000000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS refused to release the MS magnet test data on the admirred and rejected students after multiple requests. Everyone is speculating but they they got no data to support their claim. MCPS owns the data and has total control over your child’s school life; it can be cc2.0 or magnet admission.
Unless MCPS touches the UMC and MC white students’ benefit, they will not face real resistance. UMC familes can affort private schools and can bring a lawsuit.
However, Asian families, most of them are first generation of immigrants, cannot afford private schools in this area and 100% depend on public school. It is daunting task to navigate the school system which is totally different from their own school experience. When they saw their child’s education opportunity is robbed by MCPS under the name of diversity, an angry reaction is the least you can expect. Fortunately, for MCPS, the angry voice from Asian parents may be the only reaction from Asian parents. The affected Asian parents will not bring a lawsuit to MCPS, because they cannot afford, cannot find a lawyer to take their case, or decided to let it go because their own child already missed the chance and need to move on.

Dear PP, you are right, there will be no lawsuit from Asian parents!

Asian-heritage families who live in Potomac can't afford a lawyer?

Most of Asian immegtant families in Potomac or North Potomac are working families with two professional jobs. After paying for the $500-900K houses, mortgage, child care, Music/Sport/enrichment classes for kids cost them most of the income after tax and retiremen saving. $45,000 cash for a private school each year,? It is beyond most of the Asian families.

Consider then the low income AA, African, or Latinx family downcounty with a gifted child who is getting Magnet as their only opportunity.

The better approach would be to have more intervention and enrichment for K-2 in low performing schools to ensure that gifted children are challenged and nurtured so that they can easily qualify for the Magnet programs. If you just change the selection criteria using a bogus peer group rationale you could end up with what has happened this year : roughly the same number of AA and HI students and more white students from DCC schools. Meanwhile many Asian and white students in W schools with higher scores did not get in. Before you respond with the standard “but their scores are higher because they went to cram schools “ I just want to say that prepping is not as common as you might imagine and the results of prepping are not as positive as you might imagine. I know of kids who did prep who got in ( and it is not a high number) and I know of kids who prepped who did not. My child got into RMIB, Blair SMAC and CAP without any prepping and he was not alone

I don't disagree w/ you generally, but prepping from the the Asian group is common and successful. My kid just finished at TPMS and was a little freaked out by how many Asian kids were carrying A++ study books geared towards the HS magnet test all Fall. Most kids got into magnet. I'm sure these families prepped for MS exam as well. And, before anyone cries "sour grapes," my kid got into magnet, CAP, both Wheatons & RM. And, did not do a test prep class.

My issues w/ the new system is that in trying to remove emphasis from the test (I'm OK w/ that), it actually increased emphasis on the test by omitting the essays and teacher recs. These are where my kids were able to stand out. I think these are important aspects of application data that should be considered.

The bigger issue is that MCPS needs more enrichment. More magnet spots and more home school enrichment.

Your child got into a bunch of Magnet programs without prepping (as did mine fwiw). Do you really think the Asian kids he went to school with at the Takoma Magnet were successful in their HS Magnet applications because they prepped or do you think it is possible that they would be successful even if they had not. I have never understood why the prep schools are so popular with some (but not all by a long shot) Asian families. I just think that it is a largely self selected group of highly intelligent and hard working kids in these classes who would probably be successful even if they didn’t prep

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The presence of mini-magnets in the DCC makes living there (as in, owning property and not just bussing in) a viable option for families that value education. That is actually a smart approach on the part of MCPS. However, if tomorrow they will start messing with admission criteria to make the racial make-up more representative of the area, those programs will also lose their attractiveness.

Are you saying that MCPS is breaking the law by using race as a factor in admissions? If so, you should tell the Department of Justice. They are very interested in such topics, for some groups of people, these days.

The county absolutely does not use race as a selection criterion.

How do you know? If it was true, why MCPS doesnt release test data? I would be happy to see the talented URM students attending magnet. Frankly speaking, lack of diversity in magnet is not good for its students.

Because the student's application information has no information about the student's race.

They used geographical location as a proxy. One unintended result was that while they were successful at reducing the number of Asians the main group that seems to have gained at their expense is white kids in the DCC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The presence of mini-magnets in the DCC makes living there (as in, owning property and not just bussing in) a viable option for families that value education. That is actually a smart approach on the part of MCPS. However, if tomorrow they will start messing with admission criteria to make the racial make-up more representative of the area, those programs will also lose their attractiveness.

Are you saying that MCPS is breaking the law by using race as a factor in admissions? If so, you should tell the Department of Justice. They are very interested in such topics, for some groups of people, these days.

The county absolutely does not use race as a selection criterion.

How do you know? If it was true, why MCPS doesnt release test data? I would be happy to see the talented URM students attending magnet. Frankly speaking, lack of diversity in magnet is not good for its students.

Because the student's application information has no information about the student's race.

They used geographical location as a proxy. One unintended result was that while they were successful at reducing the number of Asians the main group that seems to have gained at their expense is white kids in the DCC

No, they didn't use geographical location as a proxy, and even if they had (which they didn't), it would be a terrible proxy. More Asian-American students in the downcounty don't live in Bethesda/Potomac than do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the new process so much better. The old MS magnet application asked, among other things, what state and national awards your *5th grader* had won. There were three blank lines for filling this in. And we wonder why there are Tiger parents.

Both my 5th graders (at the time) had the equivalent of a national award and several state level achievements. It made a difference I think.

This is exactly my point. No 10-year-old enters national contests. Their parents enter them, practice with them, drive them there etc. So the admission process was massively biased in favor of ambitious parents with free time, not bright and capable children. Tell me how many single parents, low-income parents, or even full-time working parents with multiple children are entering their 10-year-olds in national competitions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the new process so much better. The old MS magnet application asked, among other things, what state and national awards your *5th grader* had won. There were three blank lines for filling this in. And we wonder why there are Tiger parents.

Both my 5th graders (at the time) had the equivalent of a national award and several state level achievements. It made a difference I think.

This is exactly my point. No 10-year-old enters national contests. Their parents enter them, practice with them, drive them there etc. So the admission process was massively biased in favor of ambitious parents with free time, not bright and capable children. Tell me how many single parents, low-income parents, or even full-time working parents with multiple children are entering their 10-year-olds in national competitions.

If your child is passionate about science you might encourage them to participate in a school science fair which might lead to a county competition etc. or your child might love chess and want to go to local competitions. You don’t need a lot of money to foster a child’s interest but you do need for parents to make it a priority. Sometimes it is the parent pushing the kid ( you see this in travel sports leagues too) but more often than not it is led by the children and the parents are trying to encourage and foster their child’s interest or talent

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

MCPS refused to release the MS magnet test data on the admirred and rejected students after multiple requests. Everyone is speculating but they they got no data to support their claim. MCPS owns the data and has total control over your child’s school life; it can be cc2.0 or magnet admission.
Unless MCPS touches the UMC and MC white students’ benefit, they will not face real resistance. UMC familes can affort private schools and can bring a lawsuit.
However, Asian families, most of them are first generation of immigrants, cannot afford private schools in this area and 100% depend on public school. It is daunting task to navigate the school system which is totally different from their own school experience. When they saw their child’s education opportunity is robbed by MCPS under the name of diversity, an angry reaction is the least you can expect. Fortunately, for MCPS, the angry voice from Asian parents may be the only reaction from Asian parents. The affected Asian parents will not bring a lawsuit to MCPS, because they cannot afford, cannot find a lawyer to take their case, or decided to let it go because their own child already missed the chance and need to move on.

Dear PP, you are right, there will be no lawsuit from Asian parents!

Asian-heritage families who live in Potomac can't afford a lawyer?

Most of Asian immegtant families in Potomac or North Potomac are working families with two professional jobs. After paying for the $500-900K houses, mortgage, child care, Music/Sport/enrichment classes for kids cost them most of the income after tax and retiremen saving. $45,000 cash for a private school each year,? It is beyond most of the Asian families.

Consider then the low income AA, African, or Latinx family downcounty with a gifted child who is getting Magnet as their only opportunity.

The better approach would be to have more intervention and enrichment for K-2 in low performing schools to ensure that gifted children are challenged and nurtured so that they can easily qualify for the Magnet programs. If you just change the selection criteria using a bogus peer group rationale you could end up with what has happened this year : roughly the same number of AA and HI students and more white students from DCC schools. Meanwhile many Asian and white students in W schools with higher scores did not get in. Before you respond with the standard “but their scores are higher because they went to cram schools “ I just want to say that prepping is not as common as you might imagine and the results of prepping are not as positive as you might imagine. I know of kids who did prep who got in ( and it is not a high number) and I know of kids who prepped who did not. My child got into RMIB, Blair SMAC and CAP without any prepping and he was not alone

I don't disagree w/ you generally, but prepping from the the Asian group is common and successful. My kid just finished at TPMS and was a little freaked out by how many Asian kids were carrying A++ study books geared towards the HS magnet test all Fall. Most kids got into magnet. I'm sure these families prepped for MS exam as well. And, before anyone cries "sour grapes," my kid got into magnet, CAP, both Wheatons & RM. And, did not do a test prep class.

My issues w/ the new system is that in trying to remove emphasis from the test (I'm OK w/ that), it actually increased emphasis on the test by omitting the essays and teacher recs. These are where my kids were able to stand out. I think these are important aspects of application data that should be considered.

The bigger issue is that MCPS needs more enrichment. More magnet spots and more home school enrichment.

Your child got into a bunch of Magnet programs without prepping (as did mine fwiw). Do you really think the Asian kids he went to school with at the Takoma Magnet were successful in their HS Magnet applications because they prepped or do you think it is possible that they would be successful even if they had not. I have never understood why the prep schools are so popular with some (but not all by a long shot) Asian families. I just think that it is a largely self selected group of highly intelligent and hard working kids in these classes who would probably be successful even if they didn’t prep

I think prepping was a big part of it. My kid write great essays and had amazing teacher recs & nat'l/state level acheievments but did below median for Blair magnet on the test. The test is part of the equation, so the idea of prepping is to max out the value of that part. I think those who take A++ do that. They do like 13 weeks of 4 hr classes w/ homework and practice tests every other week. Not sure about how many kids of which races/ethnicties prep, but all the A++ books my kid saw at TPMS were w/ Asian kids. But, I see that these kids are working. I think it makes more sense to make sure that there are other student achievement criteria involved in selection and recognize that the test is just 1 factor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the new process so much better. The old MS magnet application asked, among other things, what state and national awards your *5th grader* had won. There were three blank lines for filling this in. And we wonder why there are Tiger parents.

Both my 5th graders (at the time) had the equivalent of a national award and several state level achievements. It made a difference I think.

That’s ridiculous. I had none of those things and still got into Andover for HS. Why should MCPS have higher expectations for its magnet programs?

How is that ridiculous, and why do you relate it to yourself? That's weird. the achievements were a PART of the application. I'm sure they played a PART in my kids getting into the magnet. MCPS does not expect kids to have nat'l/state level achievements, nor should expect everyone to ace the test. That's why there should be different facets to the application. (PS. My kids did exceptionally well on part of the test and underperformed on another part). Both wrote great essays and had great teacher recs. It's about how they weigh the different factors of which awards are just one.

[Anonymous]

I maintain that pp is part of the problem with “essays” and parent recommendations and national awards for 10-year-olds. The system used to be perfectly set up for parents to manage it all, and now it’s not. Hallelujah.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I maintain that pp is part of the problem with “essays” and parent recommendations and national awards for 10-year-olds. The system used to be perfectly set up for parents to manage it all, and now it’s not. Hallelujah.

Hello, I am PP. Clear that "crystal" ball, Sister! Your claims to clairvoyance are bogus, and your assertions are totally wrong. My kids wrote their essays (they learned to write at HGC, & no I didn't help them write), earned their great recs (how would a parent game that anyway?), and earned their nat'l/state awards. Did I drive said children to the auditions and sometimes many callbacks/rehearsals? Yes. But, I had no influence over theatre/film casting (wasn't even in the room for any of it). Good grief. Stop deflecting out of defensiveness and look at the best practices. The previous test-focused system wasn't it, but this isn't either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

There is no evidence that MCPS has overlooked URM kids for gt selection previously. When my DC was in ES, he said the teacher told the kids who were advanced to take the test for HGC. He was my first child in MCPS and in the US, I never heard anything about HGC in MCPS before he brought home the application. That was decade ago.
In MCPS most teachers have been happy to identify URM gift students in their classes and nurture their talent.

You are conflating "advanced" with "gifted" and making the common mistake of assuming a (almost certainly young, white, female) elementary school teacher has the desire, will, or training to identify gifted kids who are also poor/working class or kids of color.

+1 billion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that the tests are sufficient to identify "truly gifted" students is ridiculous. The addition of the "peer cohort" criterion shows this for what it really was -- a social engineering effort. Which is not wrong in and of itself but dressing it up as a more objective process is not accurate.

And I agree with the overall point that MCPS is failing the smart kids, whether or not you want to call them gifted or whether that term really fits. The advanced courses and tracking so that kids are grouped and not lumped into classes needs to be offered at all home schools. I've had kids go through both a well-regarded W feeder middle school and a magnet middle school, and the W feeder middle school was a waste of three years.

Just the opposite! The new and improved process does a superior job identifying truly gifted students by opening up the selection process to a much larger group than in previous years.

Sure, a bunch of affluent parents are angry because they can't buy their kids way into the magnets any longer, but this is a step in the right direction.

hahahahaha. what planet are you from?

The only thing MCPS is doing now is socially engineering diversity into its CES and magnet programs by using a lower bar and selecting a class by race, SES, hispanic. If they were going for all the "truly gifted students" they would stack rank quantitative scores and take only the top. Not put a score bar up of 4000 kids and select 5% of whomever they feel like adds diversity.

What a hoot!

And then as the real kicker, they ceased releasing the scores of the admits!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There is no evidence that MCPS has overlooked URM kids for gt selection previously. When my DC was in ES, he said the teacher told the kids who were advanced to take the test for HGC. He was my first child in MCPS and in the US, I never heard anything about HGC in MCPS before he brought home the application. That was decade ago.
In MCPS most teachers have been happy to identify URM gift students in their classes and nurture their talent.

You are conflating "advanced" with "gifted" and making the common mistake of assuming a (almost certainly young, white, female) elementary school teacher has the desire, will, or training to identify gifted kids who are also poor/working class or kids of color.

+1 billion

well, MAP, PARCC and subject test scores are a good place to start. Or are you now claiming there is rampant discrimination in grading multiple choice tests and computerized tests?

I honestly don't know how you have the rage and anger to fight everyone for affirmative action 24/7/365 your whole life. I will pray for you. You are a very angry person. I could not imagine hanging out with you nor working with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I like the new process so much better. The old MS magnet application asked, among other things, what state and national awards your *5th grader* had won. There were three blank lines for filling this in. And we wonder why there are Tiger parents.

Both my 5th graders (at the time) had the equivalent of a national award and several state level achievements. It made a difference I think.

That’s ridiculous. I had none of those things and still got into Andover for HS. Why should MCPS have higher expectations for its magnet programs?

How is that ridiculous, and why do you relate it to yourself? That's weird. the achievements were a PART of the application. I'm sure they played a PART in my kids getting into the magnet. MCPS does not expect kids to have nat'l/state level achievements, nor should expect everyone to ace the test. That's why there should be different facets to the application. (PS. My kids did exceptionally well on part of the test and underperformed on another part). Both wrote great essays and had great teacher recs. It's about how they weigh the different factors of which awards are just one.

OMG, andover lady is posting still? gawd, go on permanent vacation.

Seriously, word search Andover and you'll see 1000s of her posts here and on Independent Schools. Fascinating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The presence of mini-magnets in the DCC makes living there (as in, owning property and not just bussing in) a viable option for families that value education. That is actually a smart approach on the part of MCPS. However, if tomorrow they will start messing with admission criteria to make the racial make-up more representative of the area, those programs will also lose their attractiveness.

Are you saying that MCPS is breaking the law by using race as a factor in admissions? If so, you should tell the Department of Justice. They are very interested in such topics, for some groups of people, these days.

The county absolutely does not use race as a selection criterion.

How do you know? If it was true, why MCPS doesnt release test data? I would be happy to see the talented URM students attending magnet. Frankly speaking, lack of diversity in magnet is not good for its students.

Because the student's application information has no information about the student's race.

They used geographical location as a proxy. One unintended result was that while they were successful at reducing the number of Asians the main group that seems to have gained at their expense is white kids in the DCC

No, they didn't use geographical location as a proxy, and even if they had (which they didn't), it would be a terrible proxy. More Asian-American students in the downcounty don't live in Bethesda/Potomac than do.

Actually it's rockville. feel free to come for dim sum anytime.