Tell me why Harvard is the best!

[Anonymous]

But we aren't comparing the top UMD student to the bottom Yale student. We're comparing a single child's relative chances at medical school coming from Yale vs. a good state school.

Not sure what being unhappy about being in the bottom 50% has to do with anything.

The original poster thought there would be no chance that her daughter would choose UMD over Yale, but actually statistically, she is more likely to be successful in UMCP than at Yale unless she is the top 10% of her class, which is unlikely.

So yes, she may be better off at UMD.

[Anonymous]

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Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. Between two equally qualified students (same GPAs, paramedic experience, whatever), the student from the most prestigious school is going to get admitted. Given that the AMA has a lock on med schools and lots of qualified kids will be turned down. It's unfair, but that's how the world works.

Not really, the top student at umcp will get in over the lowest at Yale. Also studies show that ivy kids have a really hard time being at the bottom of their class and somebody has to be on the bottom. That's how it actually work.

But we aren't comparing the top UMD student to the bottom Yale student. We're comparing a single child's relative chances at medical school coming from Yale vs. a good state school.

Not sure what being unhappy about being in the bottom 50% has to do with anything.

The top student at a UMD-level of school often has difficulties being admitted to graduate and professional programs. By contrast, the "lowest at Yale" (1) is tough to identify, since very good schools do not publicly rank their students and Med-School admissions data assembly programs can only conjure estimates, and (2) are typically very strongly supported and assisted by their colleges. At the university level, the more prestigious school always, always wins out, and experiences to the contrary are purely anecdotal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The original poster thought there would be no chance that her daughter would choose UMD over Yale, but actually statistically, she is more likely to be successful in UMCP than at Yale unless she is the top 10% of her class, which is unlikely.

So yes, she may be better off at UMD.

When you say "statistically," you need to provide actual statistics, including a link. You can't just make up stuff about the top 10% at Yale vs. some other mystery fraction of a UMCP class.

In fact, that PP in her first post said she had been told that 95% of Yale pre-meds get into medical school. Presumably she heard that somewhere (from Yale?) and she may even have a link. You, on the other hand, and until you can document it, seem to have made your "statistics" up.

Also I don't buy that Yale kids are necessarily that much smarter/hard working than a good chunk of UMCP kids. When I compare my kid who got into an Ivy (not Yale) to DC's classmates who are at UMCP and other good state schools, there isn't a huge difference in GPAs and SATs. The difference is mainly in eye-catching passions. So that's another reason I don't buy your argument that a typical hardworking kid is going to be at the bottom of the class at Yale but the same kid will be at the top of the class at UMCP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The original poster thought there would be no chance that her daughter would choose UMD over Yale, but actually statistically, she is more likely to be successful in UMCP than at Yale unless she is the top 10% of her class, which is unlikely.

So yes, she may be better off at UMD.

When you say "statistically," you need to provide actual statistics, including a link. You can't just make up stuff about the top 10% at Yale vs. some other mystery fraction of a UMCP class.

In fact, that PP in her first post said she had been told that 95% of Yale pre-meds get into medical school. Presumably she heard that somewhere (from Yale?) and she may even have a link. You, on the other hand, and until you can document it, seem to have made your "statistics" up.

Also I don't buy that Yale kids are necessarily that much smarter/hard working than a good chunk of UMCP kids. When I compare my kid who got into an Ivy (not Yale) to DC's classmates who are at UMCP and other good state schools, there isn't a huge difference in GPAs and SATs. The difference is mainly in eye-catching passions. So that's another reason I don't buy your argument that a typical hardworking kid is going to be at the bottom of the class at Yale but the same kid will be at the top of the class at UMCP.

PS, to clarify my last paragraph. It addresses what I think is your real argument, which I don't think has anything to do with statistics. I think what you are really arguing is that the same kid might be in the middle of the pack at Yale but might stand out at UMCP. It's similar to the argument that a middle-of the-pack Sidwell kid is going to shoot to the top of a Whitman class, and I don't buy that, either. I'm saying, given the caliber of kids I know at UMCP, I don't agree.

I also agree with the PP who said that Yale is going to support the medical school application strongly. Also, the Yale name carries a lot of weight at graduate schools. Fairly or unfairly, it simply does.

[Anonymous]

I am in the STEM field and would prefer to hire a Harvard vs UMD grad. The scientific environment and training is more rigorous. I got my BS from UMD.

[Anonymous]

"Fair Harvard's number three! We're number three!'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The original poster thought there would be no chance that her daughter would choose UMD over Yale, but actually statistically, she is more likely to be successful in UMCP than at Yale unless she is the top 10% of her class, which is unlikely.

So yes, she may be better off at UMD.

When you say "statistically," you need to provide actual statistics, including a link. You can't just make up stuff about the top 10% at Yale vs. some other mystery fraction of a UMCP class.

In fact, that PP in her first post said she had been told that 95% of Yale pre-meds get into medical school. Presumably she heard that somewhere (from Yale?) and she may even have a link. You, on the other hand, and until you can document it, seem to have made your "statistics" up.

Also I don't buy that Yale kids are necessarily that much smarter/hard working than a good chunk of UMCP kids. When I compare my kid who got into an Ivy (not Yale) to DC's classmates who are at UMCP and other good state schools, there isn't a huge difference in GPAs and SATs. The difference is mainly in eye-catching passions. So that's another reason I don't buy your argument that a typical hardworking kid is going to be at the bottom of the class at Yale but the same kid will be at the top of the class at UMCP.

One popular study is by Herbert Marsh. But there are many. Educate yourself.

[Anonymous]

Herbert Marsh, the Oxford education guy? (You heard about Marsh via one of Malcolm Gladwell's books, didn't you? Fess up.)

Sure, Marsh is an eminent scholar on things like the Big Fish Little Pond effect and students' perceptions of things. I have all the respect in the world for Marsh.

But Marsh's work can't salvage your sorry butt on this debate about "desirability" because his work doesn't address the real issue: how bad your math is and how you don't understand fractions.

I'm in awe of your poker face as you tried to play that card, though!

[Anonymous]

"Tell me why Harvard is the best!"

I can't, because it's not.

[Anonymous]

OP - if your child is in STEM, read on....

http://www.inc.com/larry-kim/why-you-shouldnt-hire-someone-from-harvard.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP - if your child is in STEM, read on....

http://www.inc.com/larry-kim/why-you-shouldnt-hire-someone-from-harvard.html

I am the PP who said that Ivy Leaguers are arrogant, yet I think this article is BS.

[Anonymous]

Harvard grad here. Harvard is not "the best." It's kind of sucky for undergrads. I taught at Harvard for a year, too, and can tell you that the undergrads are quite uneven in terms of their "smarts." Some are amazing. Some are amazingly... dumb. I now teach at a top law school and see kids every year from Harvard a dozens of other colleges. It is definitely true that the Ivy kids -- on average; there are always exceptions -- are a bit more entitled; they are not necessarily any smarter, more likable or harder working.

For better or for worse I will say one thing about Harvard (equally true of Yale, Stanford, Williams, or any other elite school): it's a giant machine for buffing and polishing people until they gleam with a shiny Ivy gleam. In some sense these are finishing schools; they start with smart kids from all over the country, and after four years most of the rougher regional edges have been smoothed off and they all look like baby CEOs. They tend to look and sound much more sophisticated than their state school peers.

But as I said above, this does not make them any smarter, nicer, harder-working or more likable.

I would happily hire a young Harvard grad if he/she seemed bright and hard-working and non-obnoxious, but in part b/c I know Harvard well and know how little it can mean, the Harvard diploma would not be a plus. Toe to toe, if the Harvard grad and UMd grad seemed equally smart, nice and hard-working, I'd frankly probably pick the UMd grad, just on the theory that there are enough other people who will gladly help the Harvard grad (that is, the Harvard grad has quite a network to fall back on).

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Name recognition among employers. If an employer gets a resume from a kid who went to Harvard and a kid who went to University of Maryland, who do you think she'll hire? It won't be the kid from Maryland.

Not any employer. Ivy graduates have a reputation of being arrogant prima donnas. Of course, not all are, but this is certainly a factor outside of Big 4 management consulting, Big Law, maybe a few other narrow niches.

This. My dad was a division director at a large tech company and absolutely would not hire Ivy grads and did not want us applying to them. He'd had too many bad experiences with arrogant prima donnas.

Personally, I've worked with plenty people from Ivys and most have been great but the ones who are a PITA seem to directly tie their PITA-ness to their Ivy experience -- one of the first entry level people I supervised didn't think she should have to fax stuff (a huge part of an assistant's job in those days) because she went to Penn (yes, she actually said that to me, her boss). It definitely made me look closer for that entitlement attitude when interviewing Ivy grads, more so than those from other schools.

I have lots of family in tech on the west coast and Google, MSFT, Amazon recruit a ton at top business schools and ivy league schools for talent -

when marissa mayer moved to yahoo, she started wanted yahoo to become more elitist in terms of the where future employees went in terms of school.

Actually, Google has changed their hiring practices because they realized that you can find some really talented people who didn't go to top tier.

-signed a google employee who went to a state univ.

google 'has changed' means that they had prestive-driven recruiting in the recent past.

And you also have to see for what teams/groups. I'm sure there are a lot of devs and tests that don't even have college.

Corporate Development/Corporate Strategy/Product Marketing? Not so egalitarian.

[Anonymous]

3 million likes on FB - only 2.5 million are fake!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Name recognition among employers. If an employer gets a resume from a kid who went to Harvard and a kid who went to University of Maryland, who do you think she'll hire? It won't be the kid from Maryland.

Not any employer. Ivy graduates have a reputation of being arrogant prima donnas. Of course, not all are, but this is certainly a factor outside of Big 4 management consulting, Big Law, maybe a few other narrow niches.

This. My dad was a division director at a large tech company and absolutely would not hire Ivy grads and did not want us applying to them. He'd had too many bad experiences with arrogant prima donnas.

Personally, I've worked with plenty people from Ivys and most have been great but the ones who are a PITA seem to directly tie their PITA-ness to their Ivy experience -- one of the first entry level people I supervised didn't think she should have to fax stuff (a huge part of an assistant's job in those days) because she went to Penn (yes, she actually said that to me, her boss). It definitely made me look closer for that entitlement attitude when interviewing Ivy grads, more so than those from other schools.

I have lots of family in tech on the west coast and Google, MSFT, Amazon recruit a ton at top business schools and ivy league schools for talent -

when marissa mayer moved to yahoo, she started wanted yahoo to become more elitist in terms of the where future employees went in terms of school.

Actually, Google has changed their hiring practices because they realized that you can find some really talented people who didn't go to top tier.

-signed a google employee who went to a state univ.

google 'has changed' means that they had prestive-driven recruiting in the recent past.

And you also have to see for what teams/groups. I'm sure there are a lot of devs and tests that don't even have college.

Corporate Development/Corporate Strategy/Product Marketing? Not so egalitarian.

No. Regardless of the team, Google won't hire you w/o a degree, *unless* you are a known genius in your niche - like a super programmer or hacker.

Google used to try to only hire the "best and brightest" from the top tier schools in every department. They realized that they were not only missing out on a large chunk of a smart workforce, but also that there aren't enough people from the top tier schools to fill their needs. So, they had to change their hiring practices.