Let's talk engineering!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here -- Again, many thanks for all these very helpful and encouraging posts. We're beginning to get a feel for the available options and issues to consider. For those who have urged us to consider the social side, please be assured that we are weighing that heavily. We have 2 older kids and we know how important it is to be happy and have fun in college. We're also mindful that our DD might want to have the option to switch to a math major (or something completely different). And for those who have raised the issue of general perceptions of prestige v. the specific reputation of the engineering program at a particular school, our sons, who were/are both math majors at an Ivy (one has graduated, one is a current student), have both advised their sister as follows: 1) if you want to be an engineer, go for it; and 2) don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige.

Now, to follow-up questions --

Can anyone tell me more about engineering at any/all of the following schools:

Michigan
Cornell
Penn
Duke
Brown
Northwestern

We're somewhat familiar with the social scene at these schools, so we're mostly interested in hearing about academic opportunities. Thanks!

Agree to a point, as long as it's still a school with a great overall reputation. I wouldn't turn down Brown for say, VA Tech. Not that there's anything wrong with VA Tech, but in the long-term I'd rather have a top school with everything that comes with it -- alumni network, strong peers, great liberal arts offerings, etc. BUT I would probably put Brown towards the bottom of the list you just posted.

I have to run, but I'll post more later with my thoughts about those schools.

OK -- I see your point. Please do post back later if you can. Many thanks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a great list OP. I'm a little jealous.

This doesn't mean we expect that she'll get in to any/all of these schools -- we're still just window-shopping!

Are you black or hispanic? That helps tremendously. She will get in if you are black. Chances are much better if you are hispanic. White is good too. Asian, not so much.

[Anonymous]

'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

Well, this raises an interesting point. I'm pretty sure she's not going to law school (DH and I are lawyers -- 'nuff said there), but biz school is definitely a possibility, and this consideration did, in part, shape our list of schools to explore. We would certainly appreciate other perspectives on this issue -- why do engineers go to biz school? what do they do after biz school?, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Another less well know school is Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology -ranked the nation’s top undergraduate engineering college for 15 straight years.

I have a friend who went to Rose-Hulman. It's a great school, but just a warning, as a woman in engineering your daughter might care about this: the gender ratio is 80:20 boys:girls. Of the top rated engineering schools, MIT and Harvey Mudd have some of the most even gender ratios. I have a good friend who went to MIT who didn't even apply to Caltech because she thought the social environment would be wrong for her. MIT's gender ratio hovers around 50:50 whereas Caltech is something like 65:35, and she felt this would significantly impact her experience in college.

Isn't that a plus?

I went to an engineering school for a year, but was very distracted by all the boys. Too many boys and too much beer.

[Anonymous]

Illinois
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Missouri Science & Technology (not highly ranked,but ranked in some best return for investment lists
Purdue
NewCollege of Florida
Texas
Washington University

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

Cornelll and Princeton excepted.

[Anonymous]

I'm the engineer who went into consulting.

Out of my engineering friends from undergrad, I'd say that easily 1/2 did not go into the engineering profession. A lot went into consulting, many went back to b-school and then into finance or strategic consulting, a handful went into law (mostly patent/IP), a few went into academia. A handful went into finance out of undergrad. A handful became entrepreneurs and developed new products/services (not necessarily related to their undergrad field). A few went back to help run their family's engineering business. A few were also pre-med/biomechanical.

The fields with the most amount of practicing engineers are:
- c/s, computer engineering
- civil
- environmental
- mechanical

I can't think of anyone who stuck with electrical or chemical. I'm sure there were some, but they didn't seem as common.

Almost all of the operations research grads went into various flavors of consulting.

The one true "rocket scientist" (hardcore aerospace) I knew ended up with an MD.

I would definitely encourage her to keep MIT and Stanford on her list. Princeton isn't for everyone, but it's worth a look.

As for the schools on your list, I think they are all good engineering schools, strong in multiple fields. They all offer a variety of programs that might appeal to your DD -- combined majors, hands-on projects, study abroad, etc. I would be happy if my own DD attended any one of them. Without knowing more about her interests it's tough to differentiate them for your DD. One differentiator is that Brown is more theoretical (IMO), better if she wants to head to grad school/academia. Just a very different feel overall as a school. Worth taking a look though.

With that list I would probably look at other factors to see what appeals to her -- location, sports, culture, social, etc. Attend info sessions to get a better feel. Go tour the campuses and sit in on a few classes. Look for a summer program at her fav.

Sorry for the stream of thought! Trying to squeeze this in before a meeting!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

Well, this raises an interesting point. I'm pretty sure she's not going to law school (DH and I are lawyers -- 'nuff said there), but biz school is definitely a possibility, and this consideration did, in part, shape our list of schools to explore. We would certainly appreciate other perspectives on this issue -- why do engineers go to biz school? what do they do after biz school?, etc.

My father, brother, and almost all of my cousins were engineers that went to b-school. Why?

Because unless you truly LOVE and LIVE FOR R&D or maintaining/building processes or things, being a practicing engineer at a large corporation sucks...i.e. being a dev, test, process management/etc...

father was a software dev that went to b-school so he could gain a promotion to management.

brother was a Electrical Engineer who went to b-school so it could help him go into trading at a hedge fund.

all of my cousins who were engineers went to b-school for the recruiting/career shift...i.e. they needed to in order to 'break' into top-end strategy consulting or quantitative finance.

Why did almost all engineers in my family do this? Money and boredom. the money in engineering as you progress in your career pales in comparison to finance or consulting unless you break in at the right time at a start up and get equity or you are very very lucky and grind yourself towards the c-suite.

At my grad school last week a ph.d theoretical physicist (princeton) who worked on some very groundbreaking research on fusion energy in the 80's shifted to mckinsey and then to citigroup.....late 80's and after the wall came down he was worried that funding was going to dry up for the stuff he wanted to work on so he went into high-money areas.

And if someone like him...who was a budding rockstar in his field of expertise shifted away, i can't blame the vast majority of engineers who are tempted or want to leave practicing as engineers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

Well, this raises an interesting point. I'm pretty sure she's not going to law school (DH and I are lawyers -- 'nuff said there), but biz school is definitely a possibility, and this consideration did, in part, shape our list of schools to explore. We would certainly appreciate other perspectives on this issue -- why do engineers go to biz school? what do they do after biz school?, etc.

Having a b-school degree helps people who are going from engineering to engineering management.

[Anonymous]

Dartmouth has a 5 yrs engineering BA which (once in) in not as cut-throat as state u's. It seems like a supportive, engaging environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

Well, this raises an interesting point. I'm pretty sure she's not going to law school (DH and I are lawyers -- 'nuff said there), but biz school is definitely a possibility, and this consideration did, in part, shape our list of schools to explore. We would certainly appreciate other perspectives on this issue -- why do engineers go to biz school? what do they do after biz school?, etc.

My father, brother, and almost all of my cousins were engineers that went to b-school. Why?

Because unless you truly LOVE and LIVE FOR R&D or maintaining/building processes or things, being a practicing engineer at a large corporation sucks...i.e. being a dev, test, process management/etc...

father was a software dev that went to b-school so he could gain a promotion to management.

brother was a Electrical Engineer who went to b-school so it could help him go into trading at a hedge fund.

all of my cousins who were engineers went to b-school for the recruiting/career shift...i.e. they needed to in order to 'break' into top-end strategy consulting or quantitative finance.

Why did almost all engineers in my family do this? Money and boredom. the money in engineering as you progress in your career pales in comparison to finance or consulting unless you break in at the right time at a start up and get equity or you are very very lucky and grind yourself towards the c-suite.

At my grad school last week a ph.d theoretical physicist (princeton) who worked on some very groundbreaking research on fusion energy in the 80's shifted to mckinsey and then to citigroup.....late 80's and after the wall came down he was worried that funding was going to dry up for the stuff he wanted to work on so he went into high-money areas.

And if someone like him...who was a budding rockstar in his field of expertise shifted away, i can't blame the vast majority of engineers who are tempted or want to leave practicing as engineers.

This. Unless she hooks up with a start-up her salary will never really grow. Went to ivy but liked being technical so never went into consulting like 60% of my engineering class. Your salary will top out around 170k, maybe more if go into management (but if managing might as well do consulting and make far more money). I love science and technology, and enjoy what I do, but we have serious compromises living in a high cost area (and in US most places with jobs and good schools are high cost). Most of my colleagues commute really far to afford decent living.

This will sound cynical and maybe even sexist, but this is something my wife had discussed as we see our nieces grow up and date, but maybe consider one of the more academically diverse ivies like Cornell or Princeton; then she might marry a doctor, lawyer, or investment banker and get to have the career she wants rather than having dual engineers who bothy at work even when kids are small, and always be struggling to make ends meet (eng salaries see lot of age discrimination and outsourcing pressure).

But if u are both lawyers and can gift them a huge down payment for their housing, then maybe less of concern and they will be ok.

[Anonymous]

Your salary will top out around 170k

I get that DC is a high cost of living area, but seriously, if you are a dual income family with two engineers, that means your salary will top off around 240K. That sounds more than live-able to me. It also has a far higher earning potential than most lines of work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:'don't sacrifice a strong engineering program for Ivy prestige."

IF the engineering degree is a stepping stone to an non-engineering profession (MBA or law degree) THEN this is terrific advice, but if the DC is truly interested in engineering, the Ivy league is NOT the way to go.

Well, this raises an interesting point. I'm pretty sure she's not going to law school (DH and I are lawyers -- 'nuff said there), but biz school is definitely a possibility, and this consideration did, in part, shape our list of schools to explore. We would certainly appreciate other perspectives on this issue -- why do engineers go to biz school? what do they do after biz school?, etc.

My father, brother, and almost all of my cousins were engineers that went to b-school. Why?

Because unless you truly LOVE and LIVE FOR R&D or maintaining/building processes or things, being a practicing engineer at a large corporation sucks...i.e. being a dev, test, process management/etc...

father was a software dev that went to b-school so he could gain a promotion to management.

brother was a Electrical Engineer who went to b-school so it could help him go into trading at a hedge fund.

all of my cousins who were engineers went to b-school for the recruiting/career shift...i.e. they needed to in order to 'break' into top-end strategy consulting or quantitative finance.

Why did almost all engineers in my family do this? Money and boredom. the money in engineering as you progress in your career pales in comparison to finance or consulting unless you break in at the right time at a start up and get equity or you are very very lucky and grind yourself towards the c-suite.

At my grad school last week a ph.d theoretical physicist (princeton) who worked on some very groundbreaking research on fusion energy in the 80's shifted to mckinsey and then to citigroup.....late 80's and after the wall came down he was worried that funding was going to dry up for the stuff he wanted to work on so he went into high-money areas.

And if someone like him...who was a budding rockstar in his field of expertise shifted away, i can't blame the vast majority of engineers who are tempted or want to leave practicing as engineers.

This. Unless she hooks up with a start-up her salary will never really grow. Went to ivy but liked being technical so never went into consulting like 60% of my engineering class. Your salary will top out around 170k, maybe more if go into management (but if managing might as well do consulting and make far more money). I love science and technology, and enjoy what I do, but we have serious compromises living in a high cost area (and in US most places with jobs and good schools are high cost). Most of my colleagues commute really far to afford decent living.

This will sound cynical and maybe even sexist, but this is something my wife had discussed as we see our nieces grow up and date, but maybe consider one of the more academically diverse ivies like Cornell or Princeton; then she might marry a doctor, lawyer, or investment banker and get to have the career she wants rather than having dual engineers who bothy at work even when kids are small, and always be struggling to make ends meet (eng salaries see lot of age discrimination and outsourcing pressure).

But if u are both lawyers and can gift them a huge down payment for their housing, then maybe less of concern and they will be ok.

PP that you quoted (i also wrote posts earlier in this thread regarding operations research and schools with good programs)...anyways just wanted to highlight these two very important pieces you wrote for the OP to digest.

Regarding the start-up thing...there are many people in the valley who know they 'lucked' out on joining the right start up in the right time. I know two engineers (through my mom) that were out in the valley years ago both working at a well known tech firm right out of undergrad.

Both went to the same school, same grades, only a couple of years apart, same major....both left to join start ups in 1997. the younger one joined netflix. the older one joined another company. the younger one is worth easily 8 figures due to early netflix equity and the other is grinding away as a vp at a tech firm after going through multiple start-up busts and firings during the 2000 tech crash.

its not an uncommon story. engineering out there is a 'feast of famine' sector.

the 2nd part i highlighted also contributes to this. unlike medicine (or law....though the aba does NOT protect its members from outside market forces like the AMA does), there is no 'licensing' and other artificial barriers to entry. engineering is all about driving efficiencies and more and more can be done anywhere. the work can be sent to other facilities outside of the country or cheaper engineers can be brought in to replace you. market forces can act like a vice, putting pressure from both sides on workers wages and job security.

Things are a bit different in DC because a lot of engineers have security clearances and if you are an engineer who joins nsa, cia, nga out of school and then after 5-10 years moves over to lockheed or a contractor....you will get compensated very well and have a 'shield' against foreigners (or even others outside of the community) putting pressure on your wages due to ts/sci full-scope poly thing.


I don't want to discourage any future engineers though...there are many who truly love being engineers and are willing to sacrifice money or QoL for the chance to go into work everyday to build cool shit. ee's, nasa types, arch.e's , formula 1 engineers, etc.....but there are a lot more who realize they don't love it....and for those that fall under the later camp, going to a school that allows for a better chance to jump fields is more beneficial.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Your salary will top out around 170k

I get that DC is a high cost of living area, but seriously, if you are a dual income family with two engineers, that means your salary will top off around 240K. That sounds more than live-able to me. It also has a far higher earning potential than most lines of work.

I guess it's all relative. $340k certainly isn't shabby, but that's assuming that both spouses are at the top of their career. While my engineering friends started off with a decent salary ($40-60k for undergrad), the growth was rather slow compared to other professions. I'm sure it took them 10-15 years to get to close to $170k. At least. Also, if they choose to live off one salary to have a SAHP then $170k is very tight in this area. I don't think it's something you do if you're trying to make the big BIG bucks. Definitely not too shabby, but also not rolling in the dough.

Coming out of a top engineering school you have a lot of earning potential. Guess you have to decide if you want to sell your soul to the devil (consulting, etc.) or follow your passion.

-Engr in Consulting