Half of K class is ESOL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just spouting well worn dogma?

Are you kidding? There is tons of educational research to back up the fact that upper middle class kids succed at a far higher rate due to parental involvement. It's not just MCPS, it's a generally know researched and document fact. Feel free to google for the info.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:to the poster who takes issue with the generalizations of educational backgrounds of FARMS families etc. I'm not the poster you're responding to, but I am one of the posters who has elected, after visiting the school and researching my options, decided not to send my kid to an almost exclusively poor/ESOL school. Of course you're right that generalizations will sometimes miss the mark, but at least at our school, the fact is that you are dealing with a largely uneducated immigrant population who live in the nearby apartment complexes. I know of families who don't fit the profile and it's surprising to learn that they are eligible for FARMS (somebody lost a job; they work in social services and have a career but not much earning potential etc.), but when you're at a school that is predominately ESOL and FARMS (and by predominately, I mean hitting or at least inching towards the 90% mark), and you interact with those parents at school events etc., and just look around, it isn't racist or prejudicial/animus leading you to these conclusions. It's a readily apparent fact. It won't always be the case, but the poster who makes some of those generalizations is dealing with established and documented demographics of the poorer side of the montgomery county (or at least that's the part of maryland I'm talking about) and it's not a secret or in legitimate dispute. It's one of the big challenges faced by the school district and they know it, and as far as I know they acknowledge it, because the teachers will confirm it.

I am sorry, but what you are saying is a lot different than what you are saying.
They were making sweeping generalizations, and you are talking about your specific, personal experience and allowing that there are folks who do not fit that mold.
That was my only issue, painting everyone with the same broad brush.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:to the poster who takes issue with the generalizations of educational backgrounds of FARMS families etc. I'm not the poster you're responding to, but I am one of the posters who has elected, after visiting the school and researching my options, decided not to send my kid to an almost exclusively poor/ESOL school. Of course you're right that generalizations will sometimes miss the mark, but at least at our school, the fact is that you are dealing with a largely uneducated immigrant population who live in the nearby apartment complexes. I know of families who don't fit the profile and it's surprising to learn that they are eligible for FARMS (somebody lost a job; they work in social services and have a career but not much earning potential etc.), but when you're at a school that is predominately ESOL and FARMS (and by predominately, I mean hitting or at least inching towards the 90% mark), and you interact with those parents at school events etc., and just look around, it isn't racist or prejudicial/animus leading you to these conclusions. It's a readily apparent fact. It won't always be the case, but the poster who makes some of those generalizations is dealing with established and documented demographics of the poorer side of the montgomery county (or at least that's the part of maryland I'm talking about) and it's not a secret or in legitimate dispute. It's one of the big challenges faced by the school district and they know it, and as far as I know they acknowledge it, because the teachers will confirm it.

I am sorry, but what you are saying is a lot different than what you are saying.
They were making sweeping generalizations, and you are talking about your specific, personal experience and allowing that there are folks who do not fit that mold.
That was my only issue, painting everyone with the same broad brush.

Ok - but I'm just saying that some of the sweeping generalizations kind of hit the mark (even if it would be better to qualify every generalization with an "of course there are exceptions").

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just spouting well worn dogma?

Are you kidding? There is tons of educational research to back up the fact that upper middle class kids succed at a far higher rate due to parental involvement. It's not just MCPS, it's a generally know researched and document fact. Feel free to google for the info.

Nope, I am not kidding. Because your statement was a generalization that you tried to make specific to MCPS. I am not talking about the tons of educational research. But you said that, in MCPS, the kids who are dong well have HIGHLY educated parents AND who stress enrichment, etc. You made it a two pronged issue. My point is that is a generalization that I asked if you had evidence of. Are those the ONLY kids who do well - because that is how you phrased it. For example, what if there are two HS grad parents who take their kids to Kumon everyday. How do those kids do? Conversely, what about two BigLaw partners who are never home but have their uneducated nanny with the kid most of the time? My point is that the "research" does not take into account the individual school, teacher or student. And you do not KNOW the personal situations of every student in MCPS who is doing well.

Frankly, one of my DS had a K class that was significantly ESOL. One day he came home and started saying things in Spanish that he had picked up from classmates. We were delighted and encouraged it. He is in 9th grade now and has already satisfied his MCPS language requirement.

For the most part, we live in a SES diverse county and MCPS reflects that. If folks don't like that level of diversity, private school is an option. My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

Not the OP, but I think that this is fabulous advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just spouting well worn dogma?

Are you kidding? There is tons of educational research to back up the fact that upper middle class kids succed at a far higher rate due to parental involvement. It's not just MCPS, it's a generally know researched and document fact. Feel free to google for the info.

Nope, I am not kidding. Because your statement was a generalization that you tried to make specific to MCPS. I am not talking about the tons of educational research. But you said that, in MCPS, the kids who are dong well have HIGHLY educated parents AND who stress enrichment, etc. You made it a two pronged issue. My point is that is a generalization that I asked if you had evidence of. Are those the ONLY kids who do well - because that is how you phrased it. For example, what if there are two HS grad parents who take their kids to Kumon everyday. How do those kids do? Conversely, what about two BigLaw partners who are never home but have their uneducated nanny with the kid most of the time? My point is that the "research" does not take into account the individual school, teacher or student. And you do not KNOW the personal situations of every student in MCPS who is doing well.

Frankly, one of my DS had a K class that was significantly ESOL. One day he came home and started saying things in Spanish that he had picked up from classmates. We were delighted and encouraged it. He is in 9th grade now and has already satisfied his MCPS language requirement.

For the most part, we live in a SES diverse county and MCPS reflects that. If folks don't like that level of diversity, private school is an option. My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

Amen!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

Not the OP, but I think that this is fabulous advice.

My advice to the OP would be to close her browser window and never open this thread again. Hopefully she has gotten all the sane advice she needed on the first page.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

Not the OP, but I think that this is fabulous advice.

My advice to the OP would be to close her browser window and never open this thread again. Hopefully she has gotten all the sane advice she needed on the first page.

LOLOLOL!

[Anonymous]

This week my 3rd grade DC got a reading buddy.
He speaks little English and is very shy.
Luckily there is another 3rd grader, Spanish speaking, that is is his other reading buddy .
My DC describes being concerned about the K kid learning to read, getting to know her and not being nervous.
She described being patient and considerate with him.
I am so proud of her.
I love that she is having this experience and this education.
All of any one thing in an educational environment is not necessarily a good idea, so I love the diversity where we are and glad we did not go running for the hills in fear.
By the way we are AA and believe WE are our kids' primary educators.
Especially since we loathe the traditional teaching of history.
Yea Columbus discovered a nation that was ready occupied... I digresss

[Anonymous]

It is certainly a reason to be concerned. Personally I think kids should not be fully integrated for the first year or two when they are just learning English. I think it makes it easier for kids who need ESOL and kids who don't.
My son goes to a diverse school that we love and I am fully on board with having everyone together in a year or two. I just think that walking into a class and not knowing the language is scary for kids and they must take longer to learn. This puts added stress on the teacher and surely slows down the rest of the class (or just leave the child who needs ESOL behind)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is certainly a reason to be concerned. Personally I think kids should not be fully integrated for the first year or two when they are just learning English. I think it makes it easier for kids who need ESOL and kids who don't.
My son goes to a diverse school that we love and I am fully on board with having everyone together in a year or two. I just think that walking into a class and not knowing the language is scary for kids and they must take longer to learn. This puts added stress on the teacher and surely slows down the rest of the class (or just leave the child who needs ESOL behind)

This shows that you know absolutely nothing about language acquisition and development. Why do think immersion programs begin in kindergarten in the target language?

[Anonymous]

The presence of low ESOL is what makes ivy admissions from Bethesda and Potomac so much higher than Silver Spring.....oh wait, the opposite is actually true. Hmmm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just spouting well worn dogma?

Are you kidding? There is tons of educational research to back up the fact that upper middle class kids succed at a far higher rate due to parental involvement. It's not just MCPS, it's a generally know researched and document fact. Feel free to google for the info.

Nope, I am not kidding. Because your statement was a generalization that you tried to make specific to MCPS. I am not talking about the tons of educational research. But you said that, in MCPS, the kids who are dong well have HIGHLY educated parents AND who stress enrichment, etc. You made it a two pronged issue. My point is that is a generalization that I asked if you had evidence of. Are those the ONLY kids who do well - because that is how you phrased it. For example, what if there are two HS grad parents who take their kids to Kumon everyday. How do those kids do? Conversely, what about two BigLaw partners who are never home but have their uneducated nanny with the kid most of the time? My point is that the "research" does not take into account the individual school, teacher or student. And you do not KNOW the personal situations of every student in MCPS who is doing well.

Frankly, one of my DS had a K class that was significantly ESOL. One day he came home and started saying things in Spanish that he had picked up from classmates. We were delighted and encouraged it. He is in 9th grade now and has already satisfied his MCPS language requirement.

For the most part, we live in a SES diverse county and MCPS reflects that. If folks don't like that level of diversity, private school is an option. My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

Well, no, it's not a generalization. It's born out by fact. Those kids are doing the best.

They are not the only kids who are doing well. There are others but the numbers of those kids is far less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just spouting well worn dogma?

Are you kidding? There is tons of educational research to back up the fact that upper middle class kids succed at a far higher rate due to parental involvement. It's not just MCPS, it's a generally know researched and document fact. Feel free to google for the info.

Nope, I am not kidding. Because your statement was a generalization that you tried to make specific to MCPS. I am not talking about the tons of educational research. But you said that, in MCPS, the kids who are dong well have HIGHLY educated parents AND who stress enrichment, etc. You made it a two pronged issue. My point is that is a generalization that I asked if you had evidence of. Are those the ONLY kids who do well - because that is how you phrased it. For example, what if there are two HS grad parents who take their kids to Kumon everyday. How do those kids do? Conversely, what about two BigLaw partners who are never home but have their uneducated nanny with the kid most of the time? My point is that the "research" does not take into account the individual school, teacher or student. And you do not KNOW the personal situations of every student in MCPS who is doing well.

Frankly, one of my DS had a K class that was significantly ESOL. One day he came home and started saying things in Spanish that he had picked up from classmates. We were delighted and encouraged it. He is in 9th grade now and has already satisfied his MCPS language requirement.

For the most part, we live in a SES diverse county and MCPS reflects that. If folks don't like that level of diversity, private school is an option. My advice to OP is to monitor her specific situation to see how it plays out and then decide accordingly. But to make decisions on generalities and assumptions is not the best strategy.

Well, no, it's not a generalization. It's born out by fact. Those kids are doing the best.

They are not the only kids who are doing well. There are others but the numbers of those kids is far less.

PP here. Borne out by fact? Ok great! Where are the MCPS specific facts that support your point? Just stating the same premise again is not factual support for the premise. It is ok if you do not have the facts at your fingertips - but you should just say IMO or IME. But in these parts, making unsupported generalizations about MCPS (or any school district) and insisting they are fact without the empirical evendence to support them loses you credibility in a hurry.

On that note, I wonder how OP's DC is doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The presence of low ESOL is what makes ivy admissions from Bethesda and Potomac so much higher than Silver Spring.....oh wait, the opposite is actually true. Hmmm.

ouch. sour grapes?